mjw
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Drang nach Osten question

Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:15 am

It looks like a blast but cant find any comments on it on the boards. When the game first came out, the was no AI for it but that was a year ago. Anyone tried this scenario? Any tips? There are so many events from bringing armies east to involving various allies in the war and equipping them.


I dont want to get in over my head if it is still unfinished.

Athens
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:35 am

mjw wrote:It looks like a blast but cant find any comments on it on the boards. When the game first came out, the was no AI for it but that was a year ago. Anyone tried this scenario? Any tips? There are so many events from bringing armies east to involving various allies in the war and equipping them.


I dont want to get in over my head if it is still unfinished.


There's an AI since the start...RUS AI is built on 2 parts:
-the primary being the "core AI" in the exe, which is essentially the AGEOD AI like in other games
- my work, ie a serie of events improving AI.

At the release date, Drang didn't had AI events and so the AI is the regular and stock AGE AI.

I've ceased collaborating with SEPRUS in January.

From a quick glance at the events files, Drang events haven't since been updated.

So the scenario will be playable, with the stock AGE AI. It's certainly an engrossing experience.

I will do the AI of Drang as a mod one day.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975

My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/

[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]

the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

mjw
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:37 pm

Athens, thanks for the clarification. I'm a veteran AGEOD player but have never tried RUS. I would love some regulars to post their impressions of this scenario! How does the AI fare? It's such a great idea for a scenario I can't believe more aren't playing it

Athens
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:52 pm

mjw wrote: It's such a great idea for a scenario I can't believe more aren't playing it


I would say RUS is partially the proof the computer wargaming market to be doomed. Anything outside WW2, ACW, tactical scale, or RTS, is just destined to become a business failure. There are too few customers willing to pay the right price to get computer wargames on more obscure period.

There are other reasons too, but even without, I'm now convinced the market for good computer wargames doesn't exist because of that. What we will have in the future will be clone of Creative Assembly, Paradox and Current Firaxis games, with unhistorical features and, under a false complexity, rather basic game engines. I was jsut reading 2 minutes ago 2 Paradox players sustaining Nationalization of foreign investments should be introduced in PON, with Casus Belli associated. Semi-literates are the most numerous, alas :)
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

mjw
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:12 pm

Well, you did your part. I hope AGEOD continues to put out quality wargames but we will see....I would love a "wars of German unification" using the RoP /RUS models....oh well.

I'm going to give this scenario a shot anyway....looks worth the time investment.

Athens
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:17 pm

mjw wrote:Well, you did your part. I hope AGEOD continues to put out quality wargames but we will see....I would love a "wars of German unification" using the RoP /RUS models....oh well.

I'm going to give this scenario a shot anyway....looks worth the time investment.


AGEOD doesn't exist anymore. It's now Paradox France. ;) AGEOD is just a brand now.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

mjw
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:05 pm

Ok, but then in RUS even being supported anymore if AGEOD retains no control? I understand that RUS was an independent effort right? Will there be a final patch?

Can anyone advice if the stock AI plays this scenario well?

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Narwhal
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:26 pm

Thanks for the input.

Any idea how much RUS sold ?

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OneArmedMexican
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:44 pm

mjw wrote:Ok, but then in RUS even being supported anymore if AGEOD retains no control? I understand that RUS was an independent effort right? Will there be a final patch?


The people on the SEPRUS team have to fit the work on their game around working in other jobs. It's no wonder that this has slowed down their efforts to patch the game. But they are still working on it. Besides the lastest beta patch isn't that old.

mjw wrote:Can anyone advice if the stock AI plays this scenario well?


I gave the Drang campaign a try some months back. The AI is decent but I got the impression the huge amount of units made it slightly weaker than I had hoped for: expect about the level of finesse (or lack thereof) from the AI you might experience in RoP. On the other hand, it is a lot better than the one in ACW.

Another issue is bugs. The Drang campaigns has seen a lot less fixes (and bug reports for that matter) than the GC. Some things that work well in the GC by now might still cause trouble in the Drang Campaign.

Personally, I think the Drang campaign is begging to be played as a PBEM. I certainly would be interested. ;)

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ERISS
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:57 pm

Athens wrote:I would say RUS is partially the proof the computer wargaming market to be doomed. Anything outside WW2, ACW, tactical scale, or RTS, is just destined to become a business failure. There are too few customers willing to pay the right price to get computer wargames on more obscure period.

Periods are obscure for they were not historically 'interesting' (no great conflict),
or for educationals (governments) want it to be forgotten, not well explained, for political (economical..) reasons.

As revolutions didn't really happened, those who had stolen or driven it want to make believe people were the victor and love their new masters.

So, as these periods are told unintersting for any reason, the wargames about have not a good marketing begining.

-----------
Look, exemple: Since told French Revolution which spread, there are still monarchies in Europe... for Republicans (bourgeois actual winners) and Monarchists (aristocracy) alike allied against Democracy* (people about to win the revolution) (I somewhat write here a Murray Muchkin sentence).
* I don't talk about U.S. Democrat Party, who are republicans contempting democracy instead of hating it.

mjw
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:06 pm

Thanks guys...good news. One armed Mexican...I may indeed be interested in a pbem. I would first like to play it out on the ai of course. I don't mind RoP ai so should he fun!

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TheDoctorKing
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:34 am

I tried the Drang scenario solo when the game first came out. I won easily as the Reds. The AI does need work. It would be nice if Athens/Clovis could give it some attention though he obviously has plenty of other irons in the fire right now.

I'd like to see some work done on the scenario as well. The various German allies (Poles, Baltic states, etc.) ought to be limited to their historical areas of operation like the White regional units in the historical scenario. The troop quality of Red units and their leadership ratings should also be better than in the historical scenario. After all, this scenario represents not the untrained levies of 1918 but the battle-hardened veterans of 1921.

Good scenario though.
Stewart King

"There is no substitute for victory"

Depends on how you define victory.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Athens
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:50 am

SVF first indeed. Let's hope this summer for Drang, if ever the 1.02/1.03 patch will have been delivered at this date. :)
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

mjw
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:51 pm

What is "SVF"

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OneArmedMexican
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:40 pm

SVF stands "struggle for a vast future" it is a mod for ACW which Athens, then still calling himself "Clovis", made some years ago.

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Nikel
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:04 pm

Athens wrote:SVF first indeed. Let's hope this summer for Drang, if ever the 1.02/1.03 patch will have been delivered at this date. :)


And when a complete game based on AGEod engine?

Pity that being french you do not like Napoleonic Wars :D

Athens
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:21 pm

Nikel wrote:And when a complete game based on AGEod engine?

Pity that being french you do not like Napoleonic Wars :D


NC needs too much work to be modded. My plan after SVF is to work on ROP and Drang then possibly WIA2. Then there is PON, but I guess I will have to wait engine stabilization and more XP with the gamerules to do more thyan porting to 1 month turns.

Anyway, FY has been a nemesis, because the map is so big...When I 've begun to work again SVF 2.0, I just couldn't believed the map is so small :D . And Drang will be a huge beast to master. i've part of the Drang mod, but too uncomplete to work.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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Nikel
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:25 pm

But you did not answer my question, unless the answer is never :)

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OneArmedMexican
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:51 pm

There is Bohémond's work which looks very promising. As far as I can tell from the stuff he posted it looks as if he has made huge progress in tackling the weaknesses of NCP.

Baris
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:32 pm

TheDoctorKing wrote: The AI does need work. It would be nice if Athens/Clovis could give it some attention though he obviously has plenty of other irons in the fire right now.


I think Clovis will improve further ROP(That would be excellent) and ACW. Athens will do some final touches to RUS.And Monsabert will do some work in PON. :)

TheDoctorKing wrote:The troop quality of Red units and their leadership ratings should also be better than in the historical scenario. After all, this scenario represents not the untrained levies of 1918 but the battle-hardened veterans of 1921.

Good scenario though.


I think even if Reds have some veteran troops after RCW(Germans also have) they can not match with the troop quaility and equipment versus Germans in 1921. What can be done is to limit some options( mobilization etc.., or other. with harsh EP or money). As the name of the scenario suggests "to the east" everything was planned by Germans including railroads from Istanbul to Baghdat/central asia. If Hitler did succeed every nation in the path after a time would be a colony.

ERISS wrote:As revolutions didn't really happened, those who had stolen or driven it want to make believe people were the victor and love their new masters.

Look, exemple: Since told French Revolution which spread, there are still monarchies in Europe... for Republicans (bourgeois actual winners) and Monarchists (aristocracy) alike allied against Democracy* (people about to win the revolution) (I somewhat write here a Murray Muchkin sentence).
* I don't talk about U.S. Democrat Party, who are republicans contempting democracy instead of hating it.


Agree all of it.
The interesting thing is Bourgeois also stole aristocracy from real aristocrats.Aristoctats(good ones) need 1000 years to be mature(with culture,music etc..) I think new born Bourgeois still need some evolution time. But what is stolen is "real democracy" of course.

Athens
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Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:55 pm

OneArmedMexican wrote:There is Bohémond's work which looks very promising. As far as I can tell from the stuff he posted it looks as if he has made huge progress in tackling the weaknesses of NCP.



IMHO he will be able to do about the same I did for the AI. Contrary to some, he's competent and he has a great proficiency at work. At last, I will be able to play a game from the start..... :D
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

Athens
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:18 pm

Baris wrote:


I think even if Reds have some veteran troops after RCW(Germans also have) they can not match with the troop quaility and equipment versus Germans in 1921. What can be done is to limit some options( mobilization etc.., or other. with harsh EP or money). As the name of the scenario suggests "to the east" everything was planned by Germans including railroads from Istanbul to Baghdat/central asia. If Hitler did succeed every nation in the path after a time would be a colony.



.


Right, even if indeed Reds should have moe battle-hardened troops. The real challenge is to build a RED AI able to do some strategical retreats and strike back on German units when they will have supply difficulties. Interestingly, the problem of rail conversion isn't taken into account when it would have been as difficult for German in 1921 than in 1941. And the AGE engine isn't well suited currently to depict this. I'm looking for some solution about, and what I have drafted in my mind has to be checked by testing, this phase often forgotten by devs... ;)
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

User avatar
Nikel
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:44 pm

Clovis, Clovis,...

Athens
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:50 pm

Nikel wrote:Clovis, Clovis,...



What? :D
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

Baris
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:51 pm

Athens wrote:Right, even if indeed Reds should have moe battle-hardened troops. The real challenge is to build a RED AI able to do some strategical retreats and strike back on German units when they will have supply difficulties. Interestingly, the problem of rail conversion isn't taken into account when it would have been as difficult for German in 1921 than in 1941. And the AGE engine isn't well suited currently to depict this. I'm looking for some solution about, and what I have drafted in my mind has to be checked by testing, this phase often forgotten by devs... ;)


Exactly this was in my mind before posting "Strategically retreats".If it can be done it will be some kind of revolution. The early stage is a problem for red AI that she can be overwhelmed early especially in Minsk and Don. But I truly believe is a hard task to do with big regions and many troops and possibilities. Against German AI I was able to hold with med random leaders as 6-7-7 Tukhachevsky(Full experienced) at Minsk against 700 k german AI. :) Well it is marvaleus scenario and everyone should be proud for preparing it. But needs some tune both for AI and some options.

Athens
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:54 pm

Baris wrote:Exactly this was in my mind before posting "Strategically retreats".If it can be done it will be some kind of revolution. The early stage is a problem for red AI that she can be overwhelmed early especially in Minsk and Don. But I truly believe is a hard task to do with big regions and many troops and possibilities. Against German AI I was able to hold with med random leaders as 6-7-7 Tukhachevsky(Full experienced) at Minsk against 700 k german AI. :) Well it is marvaleus scenario and everyone should be proud for preparing it. But needs some tune both for AI and some options.


Against an enhanced German AI, the scen would be a real challenge for human player.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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Nikel
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:55 pm

Athens wrote:What? :D


Where have you gone?! :)

Baris
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:05 pm

Athens wrote:Against an enhanced German AI, the scen would be a real challenge for human player.


If the challange would be similar to Frederick's then it would be marvelous, but currently German AI is far from being superb.

Athens
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Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:06 pm

Nikel wrote:Where have you gone?! :)


in a place where I'm free and where I may use freely some design ideas backep up by a real knowledge of the AGE engine, its AI and scripting stuff. That's grateful. Until now, maybe 10 players have downloaded a version of FY, which is a great success :) . I 'm rather happy to play FY, or the one month turn version of PON and to think about the chance to really be able to tweak the system to get the right results.

Unfortunatly, there are much more game designers than people ready or able to do the real work. Considering himself as a game designer is certainly more gratifying than an obscure AI modder. Fortunatly, I've decided I could alter an existing product, which isn't as hard than designing a whole game, but with maybe a greater efficiency in single play or game interest.

I'm proud of the AACW Kentucky trick I devised. I'm fond of the FY regional policies I've created. And I'm surprised by the AI from time to time...

So this place is heaven. :)
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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Nikel
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Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:38 pm

Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:22 pm

But you always were free, were you not? ;)

Anyway the pleasure you comment and that I understand enters in contradiction with your last comments here and there.

Your frustration, that also fully understand, is causing more anger than sadness now.

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