Chekist repression

[TheDoctorKing]

How does this work?

Does it increase political support throughout the region? Is the increase the same in every area within the region or more in cities than in countryside? Does the presence of police-type units improve outcome? If so, only in the areas they occupy or throughout the region?

I'm wondering if it's worth building a whole bunch of Cheka units and sending them to places where I'm planning to do special taxes or recruitment.

[Clovis]

How does this work?

Does it increase political support throughout the region? Is the increase the same in every area within the region or more in cities than in countryside? Does the presence of police-type units improve outcome? If so, only in the areas they occupy or throughout the region?

I'm wondering if it's worth building a whole bunch of Cheka units and sending them to places where I'm planning to do special taxes or recruitment.

This RGD decreases green loyalty in all regions of an aera. By the way, it increases your Loyalty.

Until now, loyalty pealties and planturous conscription and money events have made RGD rather secondary. Prepare to be forced to use them as your primary ressource and conscript source in the next patch, with raised effects on Loyalty...

You shouldn't then waver about large use of Tcheka RGD

[TheDoctorKing]

Thanks! I expect that these techniques are the main way the Reds (at least) get conscripts and money.

I've been using the Cheka thing since the event that allowed it, but I'm still a little unclear on the connection to the Cheka units. Do they make this more effective? Or are they only morale boosters for combat units as the tooltip seems to imply?

In what way are they different (aside from somewhat greater combat power) from Political Commissar units? Would you want to have both kinds of units in your forces?

And since all the "special operations" seem to cost NM, where do increases in NM come from???

[TheDoctorKing]

Here's an idea: subversion event gives increased NM. After all, it's consistent with communist philosophy. It makes the party members happy because they can go out and be conspiratorial. And Russians as a whole support the communists more if it works. Let that be the counter-balance to all the repression and extra taxation choices.

[Clovis]

Here's an idea: subversion event gives increased NM. After all, it's consistent with communist philosophy. It makes the party members happy because they can go out and be conspiratorial. And Russians as a whole support the communists more if it works. Let that be the counter-balance to all the repression and extra taxation choices.

I disagree. Subversion is yet factoring losses of Loyalty for enemy factions. Giving Red NM bonus would unbalance the game as this weapon hasn't an equivalent for Whites.

Let's take a region with 55% of Loyalty for Whites. A subversion action could lower it to49%. Let's say Communist ill rise from 4% to 7 and the rest of Loyalty is for Green. You have now a region with a Green Revolt risk, hence a problem for White who can't do requisitions or conscription here...IMHO largely sufficient

[TheDoctorKing]

There's got to be some way to gain NM. Right now, seemingly the only ways are to win battles, gain territory, and the one point per turn for holding your capital. If the "special operations" are the principal way you get troops, rubles, and WS, then you are only going to be able to do one per turn, all other things being equal. For the Reds, especially, there will be a trend towards declining NM anyway as all those little garrisons in Siberia get overrun and the whites capture territory at the beginning. I predict a slow slide into oblivion for the revolution unless there are some countervailing forces.

One thing is what was done in AACW - a bunch of "flavor" events that hand out small increases in NM for the adoption of national anthems or big Lenin speeches and suchlike. Or maybe the Reds could get two free NM per turn, one for holding Moscow and the other for Petrograd. After all, the two White factions are getting one apiece for their two capitals.

Game I'm playing right now, it's March 1919 and I'm down to NM of 83. I hold all the major core cities and am threatening Kiev, my armies are large, but I can't grow very rapidly because of fear of pushing my NM below 80. The two white factions are in the 100 range, probably because they haven't been using the "special operations" as far as I can tell. Their economic events seem to be working BTW.

And I've got a huge pile of EPs stocked up. Maybe there could be some way to convert EPs into NM. Some event like a Lenin speaking tour...

And why is Lenin locked in Moscow? Surely with his "propagandist" special ability he would be useful making a tour of the countryside...

[Clovis]

There's got to be some way to gain NM. Right now, seemingly the only ways are to win battles, gain territory, and the one point per turn for holding your capital. If the "special operations" are the principal way you get troops, rubles, and WS, then you are only going to be able to do one per turn, all other things being equal. For the Reds, especially, there will be a trend towards declining NM anyway as all those little garrisons in Siberia get overrun and the whites capture territory at the beginning. I predict a slow slide into oblivion for the revolution unless there are some countervailing forces.

One thing is what was done in AACW - a bunch of "flavor" events that hand out small increases in NM for the adoption of national anthems or big Lenin speeches and suchlike. Or maybe the Reds could get two free NM per turn, one for holding Moscow and the other for Petrograd. After all, the two White factions are getting one apiece for their two capitals.

Game I'm playing right now, it's March 1919 and I'm down to NM of 83. I hold all the major core cities and am threatening Kiev, my armies are large, but I can't grow very rapidly because of fear of pushing my NM below 80. The two white factions are in the 100 range, probably because they haven't been using the "special operations" as far as I can tell. Their economic events seem to be working BTW.

And I've got a huge pile of EPs stocked up. Maybe there could be some way to convert EPs into NM. Some event like a Lenin speaking tour...

And why is Lenin locked in Moscow? Surely with his "propagandist" special ability he would be useful making a tour of the countryside...

Some options will be more costly in EP in the next patch.

Gaining NM? By victories indeed. And sorry to seem always in disaccord with you, but Red won victories over victories on Siberian and in a lesser measure on Southern Whites before the Tambov Green rebellion and large desertions in 1920 to Makhno forces....In game terms, NM must be something very difficult to gain and keep.

With the new requisition system, you will lose less NM for acquiring ressources. But if we give NM by events, the game will lose a large part of its interest IMHO. You're in March 1919, there are reasons to explain why Civil War lasted until 1921: Red didn't have the high population support represented in game term by 110 and + NM.

With big armies, large NM and so on, you will have no difficulty to crush your opponent, especially AI driven too soon. Southern Whites have few territories, Siberian have few good troops and men,Reds have men and territories, and with large NM, this would signify no balance, event between human players.

[TheDoctorKing]

I think with the elimination of NM cost for recruitment/taxation "special operations" this will satisfy my concerns. We certainly do not want to make it too easy for the Reds. I was not actually calling for the flavor events - I found them a little disconcerting in AACW too. But giving NM for holding both Petrograd and Moscow each turn might be a good compromise, balancing what the Whites are getting if everything is normal.

When the next patch comes out I will start another grand campaign and give you a report. I thought I'd give the "Drang Nach Osten" campaign a shot too.

I think we all appreciate your work, Clovis. I certainly don't want to be an obstacle to progress, just putting in some ideas.

[Clovis]

I think with the elimination of NM cost for recruitment/taxation "special operations" this will satisfy my concerns. We certainly do not want to make it too easy for the Reds. I was not actually calling for the flavor events - I found them a little disconcerting in AACW too. But giving NM for holding both Petrograd and Moscow each turn might be a good compromise, balancing what the Whites are getting if everything is normal.

When the next patch comes out I will start another grand campaign and give you a report. I thought I'd give the "Drang Nach Osten" campaign a shot too.

I think we all appreciate your work, Clovis. I certainly don't want to be an obstacle to progress, just putting in some ideas.

You're not an obstacle! Any discussion is interesting and gives hints about possible improvments. Before agreeing on a common solution, we must disagree, isn't it ?

We'll see with the next patch what has to be done for NM more. Your idea could indeed be one of the possible solution, if needed

GC: With RC2, AI is weaker on the long run than in the first, for different reasons ( a sort of progress :w00t

AI has trouble to choose the good units to build, and players have generally too much ressources in a few months. I've built the AI to follow a rather conservative line for avoiding too much NM losses or revolts, but players don't fear to build as much as possible because some options are too cheap, and loyalty losses too low.

So AThena is at risk facing an human opponent not only clever but restless because nothing hinder him to build the big stacks allowing him to gain back by military victories NM needed and spent...

The good new is Athena will be better in building choices in the next patch ( a forgotten file was the cuse of the trouble :bonk and with better balance, Athena should be less overwhelmed by human opponent.

[Baris]

Hard geography can also sometimes be a problem for Athena, such as mountains and regions with low supply but long distances like in steppe or caucasus etc... She lost some men in my campaign due to low supply and winter. She is not yet "Femme Fatale" but she does unexpected like forcing MC to my retreat path or try to cut supply lines. But overall is good. This is very good and promising game.

[Scipio]

I've been playing around with the Revolution under Siege scenario as the Reds, and I'm finding it pretty difficult to strike a balance between recruiting and loss of NM. The White stacks seem to outclass me on all fronts, and every time I think I can face them defensively, I lose the battle, except where Trotsky is present with a large force.

Outflanking and cavalry raids on rail lines do not seem to be having much of an effect. And if I try to do a lot of recruiting to make up in numbers what I lack in quality, the NM starts plummeting, not to mention what happens when I lose the big battles. I think I'm in trouble when the Poles show up.

Now obviously I'm not very good at this, so take it not as a complaint, but as a data point for figuring out how to balance things for ordinary (or less than ordinary ) players.

I think I might not be concentrating my forces enough by stripping other fronts. But I'd definitely have to give ground because the Whites seem pretty strong on all fronts. And even setting retreat when engaged loses troops (and NM) when the Whites push.

It may also be that most people are focusing on the Grand Campaign. Usually, the earlier one starts and the longer one has, the easier it is to outsmart an AI.

From what I've seen so far, you've done a really nice job with the AI.

[Clovis]

Hard geography can also sometimes be a problem for Athena, such as mountains and regions with low supply but long distances like in steppe or caucasus etc... She lost some men in my campaign due to low supply and winter. She is not yet "Femme Fatale" but she does unexpected like forcing MC to my retreat path or try to cut supply lines. But overall is good. This is very good and promising game.

Athena winning against an experienced player? I don't think it possible. AGE engine is too complex for an AI to perform so well. But if i can make her a worthy opponent, forcing experience player to use all the game subtleties to win, and in the same time have an AI able to give some historicity chrome, so I will be happy. There's yet much work to do.

About winter, I could ground Athena completely, it's easy. I don't want because she would be predictable and any human opponent will go rampage all over the country without any fear. And moving in winter is for Athena as for an human player a risk of attrition. I'm aiming at limiting these losses to rare occurences. After all, any human player tries to do the same

[Clovis]

I've been playing around with the Revolution under Siege scenario as the Reds, and I'm finding it pretty difficult to strike a balance between recruiting and loss of NM. The White stacks seem to outclass me on all fronts, and every time I think I can face them defensively, I lose the battle, except where Trotsky is present with a large force.

Outflanking and cavalry raids on rail lines do not seem to be having much of an effect. And if I try to do a lot of recruiting to make up in numbers what I lack in quality, the NM starts plummeting, not to mention what happens when I lose the big battles. I think I'm in trouble when the Poles show up.

Now obviously I'm not very good at this, so take it not as a complaint, but as a data point for figuring out how to balance things for ordinary (or less than ordinary ) players.

I think I might not be concentrating my forces enough by stripping other fronts. But I'd definitely have to give ground because the Whites seem pretty strong on all fronts. And even setting retreat when engaged loses troops (and NM) when the Whites push.

It may also be that most people are focusing on the Grand Campaign. Usually, the earlier one starts and the longer one has, the easier it is to outsmart an AI.

From what I've seen so far, you've done a really nice job with the AI.

With the next version, you will lose less NM. Line of communication are rather complex in AGE, and succeeding in surrounding operations or deep raids in the rear is like in reality much difficult than expected.

I've seen savegames where Red player has built quickly a very strong army and is as soon as December 18 menacing Southern Whites in their very existence. On the contrary, Human Southern Whites are able to menace both Moscow and Petrograd in 1919 simply because they have too much men and the Red AI too few troops consdering the trouble in construction it has currently.

Tip: create small detachments when facing a strong enemy force. That will serve you to divide this force or lure it to a trap....

[Baris]

Athena winning against an experienced player? I don't think it possible. AGE engine is too complex for an AI to perform so well. But if i can make her a worthy opponent, forcing experience player to use all the game subtleties to win, and in the same time have an AI able to give some historicity chrome, so I will be happy. There's yet much work to do.

. I'm aiming at limiting these losses to rare occurences. After all, any human player tries to do the same

Yes of course out of topic :In my Rop game French nearly make me surrounder, I m very glad.

Rus game has an advantage of railways.So there is more possibility for AI to flank,move faster and do the unexpected, Im very glad, thanks. Im not confortable with RUS still learning rules, Im only 20 turns of the campaign.