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Alexor
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Southern White Strategy in Grand Campaign ?

Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:48 am

Ok, this is just some comments and questions about the Whites in the south at the very beginning of the Grand Campaign.
I did the first 4-5 turns a couple of times to try and understand the dynamics.
My first priority is to save my forces as much as possible and not throw the White Elite divisions into massive assault against Red Guards right away.
Keeping that in mind what do you do ? I see 3 choices. I quickly activate the options to raise conscripts and build as much White INF (and a couple of supply) as I can in Azov, then;

1/concentrate all Cossack and White forces in the Kuban and try to mop up all Reds in and around Ekaterinodar and Grozny (with some Cavalry sent north to cut the railroad from Tsaritzyn)

2/concentrate all Cossack and White forces towards Tsarizyn to make sure you take it asap with only a defensive force (new units being created) around Azov to delay the Reds there. Some Cav must sneak behind Reds in the Kuban to destroy as much railroads as possible too.

3/a combination of the 2 above, Whites in the Kuban and Don Cossacks rush to Tsaritzyn to join with the isolated Cossack division up there (these guys will cut the railroad north of Tsaritzyn on turn 2).
This would be my favorite combo so far but the Reds in Tsaritzyn are way too tough for the Krasnov Don army. I'm trying to lure them out of the city with the Cossacks North of them but it doesnt seem to work...Damn the AI is not stupid enough. :)

Any comments?

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OneArmedMexican
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Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:52 am

Alexor wrote:Ok, this is just some comments and questions about the Whites in the south at the very beginning of the Grand Campaign.
I did the first 4-5 turns a couple of times to try and understand the dynamics.
My first priority is to save my forces as much as possible and not throw the White Elite divisions into massive assault against Red Guards right away.
Keeping that in mind what do you do ? I see 3 choices. I quickly activate the options to raise conscripts and build as much White INF (and a couple of supply) as I can in Azov, then;

1/concentrate all Cossack and White forces in the Kuban and try to mop up all Reds in and around Ekaterinodar and Grozny (with some Cavalry sent north to cut the railroad from Tsaritzyn)

2/concentrate all Cossack and White forces towards Tsarizyn to make sure you take it asap with only a defensive force (new units being created) around Azov to delay the Reds there. Some Cav must sneak behind Reds in the Kuban to destroy as much railroads as possible too.

3/a combination of the 2 above, Whites in the Kuban and Don Cossacks rush to Tsaritzyn to join with the isolated Cossack division up there (these guys will cut the railroad north of Tsaritzyn on turn 2).
This would be my favorite combo so far but the Reds in Tsaritzyn are way too tough for the Krasnov Don army. I'm trying to lure them out of the city with the Cossacks North of them but it doesnt seem to work...Damn the AI is not stupid enough. :)

Any comments?


I disagree with one things you wrote:
Don't build at all or don't build much except for perhaps one or two White Guards for garnision duty. You can train them with one of your training officers.
You need your resources to buy Southern White and some Don Cossack replacements. Don't waste money on English, American or French replacements.

As for the strategic options:
3/ is more than your troops can achieve.
1/ is in my opinion the best: Those Reds south of Azov are highly vulnerable. Attack with massed forces under Denikin from the first turn on. The Reds take terrible punishment if you attack them with a strong force.
The aim is: to destroy as much as possible of the Red forces south of Azov.
Take Ekaterinodar, mop up the rests of the Red troops, rest for a turn or two and then send your massed forces against Tsaritzyn (you should just be able to take it before winter comes).
At least that is my opinion: first Ekaterinodar than Tsaritzyn if you keep your attack troops strong you will get both done without too much casualties.

One more thing, send one single cavalry regiment to Astrakhan in turn one (the AI often evacuates the town). :bonk: There is one conscript point to be had.

And a very cynical tip for later on (1919): Foreign forces (English, French, American, Greek) should be your vanguard. They will retreat eventually. Better make good use of them before they do.

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Alexor
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Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:12 am

Interesting comments, thx.
I agree with you on the option #1...probably the best one.
On the tactical level I find myself taking way too much casualties because I can't manage to time my different White divisions to attacks properly together. I can't create Corps yet so they often attack separately during one turn. I guess the best way is to regroup all of them in one big stack under Denikin and roll over the Reds. I'll try that next time.

So you would not build build many White Inf at the beginning of the game? I guess I get your point to save replacement. I'm still trying to figure out the replacement system but you're probably right.

How do you manage to save the Don Cossack division isolated north of Tsaritzyn if you focus all your forces in the Kuban then ? I tried to sneak my way south but they got caught by the Reds there (:turc :) . If they stay and entrench they will die off slowly from lack of supply, right ?

Finally I like your tip about Foreign troops ! Let them bleed for Mother Russia ! :)

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:17 am

OneArmedMexican wrote:. Attack with massed forces under Denikin from the first turn on. The Reds take terrible punishment if you attack them with a strong force.
The aim is: to destroy as much as possible of the Red forces south of Azov.
Take Ekaterinodar, mop up the rests of the Red troops, rest for a turn or two and then send your massed forces against Tsaritzyn (you should just be able to take it before winter comes).


Yes, there is a real chance to annihilate all Red forces south of Tsaritsin and take a huge number of prisoners.

And what about: building a river transport in turn 1, and using the whole Don to transport troops north, to the port of Lipski. It can be used as springboard for an attack to Moscow if Tsaritsin does not fall, as well as a base for cutting off Tsaritsin from the rear.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:24 am

It's no problem to build two corps with your 2.star-generals. Split your forces in those two corps and mop up the red forces to the west and east of your position!

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:41 am

cwegsche wrote:It's no problem to build two corps with your 2.star-generals. Split your forces in those two corps and mop up the red forces to the west and east of your position!


No problem for you maybe...I can not create Corps with these 2 Don Cossack ** generals you're mentioning. Am I doing something wrong? The Corps creation icon stays grayed out for these 2 guys...weird.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:43 am

GlobalExplorer wrote:Yes, there is a real chance to annihilate all Red forces south of Tsaritsin and take a huge number of prisoners.

And what about: building a river transport in turn 1, and using the whole Don to transport troops north, to the port of Lipski. It can be used as springboard for an attack to Moscow if Tsaritsin does not fall, as well as a base for cutting off Tsaritsin from the rear.


Transporting your army north along the Don ?! You're crrrazy !!! :bonk:
Oh wait...that's actually a good idea...hmm...

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:05 pm

GlobalExplorer wrote:And what about: building a river transport in turn 1, and using the whole Don to transport troops north, to the port of Lipski. It can be used as springboard for an attack to Moscow if Tsaritsin does not fall, as well as a base for cutting off Tsaritsin from the rear.


Alexor wrote:Transporting your army north along the Don ?! You're crrrazy !!! :bonk:
Oh wait...that's actually a good idea...hmm...


My reaction was exactly the other way around: Nice idea. ... Wait that won't work.

Here is why: the Don belongs to the red river fleet. They can trap you way too easily, cut off your retreat and leave you to starve.
That is if you even get to land: if things go bad you might be shredded on the river transport. And finally with one transport you can transport only a small force.

By the way, my compliments to the people working on the AI: it seems someone has taught it how to cut off vital river crossings with its river fleets. Extremely annoying and amazing at the same time. :thumbsup:

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:27 pm

I just drag them out from the main army and create the two corps. Don't know why it shound not work ... you have an army and a two star general so you can create a subordinate corps. For me it works fine just like it's supposed to work.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:52 pm

cwegsche wrote:I just drag them out from the main army and create the two corps. Don't know why it shound not work ... you have an army and a two star general so you can create a subordinate corps. For me it works fine just like it's supposed to work.


Oooh...I didnt drag them out of the Krasnov pack first, that must be why I couldnt create corps with them, I'll try that.
Thx !

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:00 pm

Alexor wrote:Oooh...I didnt drag them out of the Krasnov pack first, that must be why I couldnt create corps with them, I'll try that.
Thx !


No problem :-)

I would move out the Army comander from the Cossack Army out first (has higher senority) so that the corps created subordinate to the southern whites Volunteers army ... this army has a much better Commander!

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:06 pm

cwegsche wrote:No problem :-)

I would move out the Army comander from the Cossack Army out first (has higher senority) so that the corps created subordinate to the southern whites Volunteers army ... this army has a much better Commander!


I going to try this too, thank you for simple, but probably great advice :thumbsup:
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Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:43 pm

By the way, is there still no way to control which Army a new Corps will be attached to?

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:57 pm

GlobalExplorer wrote:By the way, is there still no way to control which Army a new Corps will be attached to?


Don't think so but this would be a great addition. Perhaps you should post this in the "Help to improve RUS" section of the forum!

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:57 pm

Well I thought that there was no choice, that the 2 Cossack 2stars generals had to be under Krasnov command but apparently "cwegsche" (nice name) managed to attach them to Denikin.
I have to try that later today but it wouldn't be very historical...

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:04 pm

Alexor wrote:Well I thought that there was no choice, that the 2 Cossack 2stars generals had to be under Krasnov command but apparently "cwegsche" (nice name) managed to attach them to Denikin.
I have to try that later today but it wouldn't be very historical...


Yes you have to move the cossack army commander out of the region and attach the them the second turn to your Volunteers Army comander (cause range from army comander to its designated corps counts first).

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:01 pm

cwegsche wrote:Don't think so but this would be a great addition. Perhaps you should post this in the "Help to improve RUS" section of the forum!


Tbh, I think this issue has been raised 100 times in previous games, no idea why this has not been adressed by now. Especially since we now have the army icons on the right side, someone should have thought of clicking on an army to set the focus on it, or dragging the corps commander over the army icon.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:05 pm

GlobalExplorer wrote:Tbh, I think this issue has been raised 100 times in previous games, no idea why this has not been adressed by now.


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Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:03 pm

No problem in fact. I was only pointing out that the issue is well known by now.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:53 pm

Alexor wrote:Transporting your army north along the Don ?! You're crrrazy !!! :bonk:
Oh wait...that's actually a good idea...hmm...


Looks like you are right.

So I sat in Lipki and waited for the large reinforcements which were to come from the South, once my additional barges were ready. It all went well until suddenly Trotski appeared in Voronesh, with a huge army. Though I could retreat some part of the division and evacuate them with the new barges, the Don operation ended in a military disaster that accounts for 50% of my losses so far.

Not recommended :p leure:

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:02 pm

GlobalExplorer wrote:Looks like you are right.

So I sat in Lipki and waited for the large reinforcements which were to come from the South, once my additional barges were ready. It all went well until suddenly Trotski appeared in Voronesh, with a huge army. Though I could retreat some part of the division and evacuate them with the new barges, the Don operation ended in a military disaster that accounts for 50% of my losses so far.

Not recommended :p leure:


Heh :) This is where 'gamey tactics' get you. Had similar experience playing the Reds and taking everything along the Moscow/Kazan railroad with Trotsky and two divisions...then ran into a stack of 20k Siberian Whites. Not a pleasant experience.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:18 pm

I just discovered a way to choose to which army (Don Cossack or Volunteer) you assign one of these 2 Cossack 2 stars generals stacked with Krasnov on turn1...
All the Cossack and Volunteer unit begin the game INSIDE Azov.
Select Krasnov army, drag one of the 2 generals (Denisov or Sidorin) OUTSIDE Azov and he will become a Volunteer Corps general.
Now if you do that but you also drag Krasnov OUTSIDE of Azov (and keep Denikin inside) before you nominate the Corps general he will become a Don Cossack Army Corps commander.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:51 pm

What do you do with the foreign troops in Murmansk during the openning game?

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:37 pm

Some notes:

If you want to recruit additional troops for front line service as the whites early in this scenario go for southern white militia. You have a good number of training officers to train these. Doing so will also require some infantry replacements (as most of those militia upgraded to trained infantry will be lacking elements). That way you can build a substantial infantry force to back up the elite infantry of the three southern white divisions and spare most of the cossack force for other duties (like garrisoning your two early production sites, raiding towards Tsaritsin etc.)...

I'd also go for destroying the isolated bolshevik forces in the Don and Kuban area as soon as possible. Before they can organise they are easy prey and will provide your troops and officers invaluable experience. Just be careful not to lose any of your depleted veteran units. Some of your officers might also be at risk, but I feel it's worthwhile (in destroying those forces I lost three of my division commanders (two of the original infantry division ones plus a substitute), but at the same time I ended up with one 2* promoted to 3*, 2 1* to 2* and a lot of experience to these and others greatly improving their ratings, I could also have promoted other leathers but chose not to for various reasons)). With the Kuban campaign you will also gain access to two strategic cities (which can also become sites to industrialise), open a secure link to the Terek cossacks and any reinforcements from the Caucasian Republics and deny the bolsheviks naval bases for their Don fleet (I believe I may have destroyed it through lack of bases as I also raided towards Lipski with my Cossacks)...

Concerning the lone northern Don Cossack force. I also tried to move it south to the Azov area to link up with Denikin. My plan was to slash and burn as much bolshevik territory as I could along the way, particularly by tearing up the rail tracks both north and south of Tsaritsin. I failed in my primary task as some of the bolsheviks from Tsaritsin managed to block my cossacks and then draw my force into an unequal battle. But while battered, my force escaped back to it's starting positions. But in the meanwhile they and various detachments had captured 3-4 bolshevik settlements, torn up tracks in several locations and kept at least some of the Tsaritsin bolsheviks busy (I saw Stalin with some forces east of Azov, but he never engaged Denikin's army, nor was he able to save any of the Kuban bolsheviks). Then came the year 1919 and the northern Don Cossacks rose up in arms so that I'm considering sending Krasnov north to organise them for the summer of 1919 campaign against Tsaritsin...

So right now my plan for 1919 is to have Krasnov with the northern Don Cossacks strike south and Denikin with the white regulars, trained militia, southern Don Cossacks, some Tereks, Kubans and Caucasians striking north. In the meantime the french and greek expeditions will secure the Crimean which should allow me to send a few additional regulars to Denikin along with direly needed artillery. The North Western whites will try an attack towards Petrograd, but I doubt they will have much success. The forces from Murmansk will probably launch a diversionary attack and simultaneously reinforce Archangelsk. Oh and maybe a force formed around the nucleus of the Terek cossacks will try and capture Astrakan...

P.S.: While manpower and money can at times be short (I often was in the red for money, but several times in 1918 I managed to get a hundred or so and go for more expensive replacements like armoured cars, armoured trains or artillery), I have so far had no problem raising enough replacements to maintain my starting forces and raise new trained militia. By the end of the Kuban campaign of 1918 I could also start increasing my artillery arm (and a third armoured car unit (oh and I accidently bought a gunboat squadron)). Though maybe the people having these problems play with a different attrition set (I left it at default for now as I don't have much time to play these days and just wanted a few fun games to start with)...
Marc aka Caran...

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:15 pm

Now if one only knew in advance when invasions and new armies appear .. I began a thrust north with the forces available and was overextending myself.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:24 pm

I love the fact that the AI is playing differently in similar situations. I tried 3 times the first 2 turn with the Whites and every time it was different.
For example, twice I managed to take Astrakhan with a Terek Cossak regiment but the 3rd time someone was waiting for me and I was in Passive Posture...ouch!

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:33 pm

I liked the counterattack the AI made on Liski, pretty costly for me.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:39 pm

Alexor wrote:I love the fact that the AI is playing differently in similar situations. I tried 3 times the first 2 turn with the Whites and every time it was different.
For example, twice I managed to take Astrakhan with a Terek Cossak regiment but the 3rd time someone was waiting for me and I was in Passive Posture...ouch!


I've made Astrakhan a secondary priority, because Bolsheviks can't defend all in June 18. So indeed the AI will consider first other points before considering Astrakhan can be garrisonned. In any case, Astrakhan isn't a great ressource center and you have to cross some deerts to come in from Kuban. Fine if you take the region, less if you're expected...
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Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:19 pm

yep, I got frustrated not taking it on the first turn so I came back in force with most of my Don Cossack Army in Sept 18 and got slaughtered by the garrison after crossing these 2 Harsh Weather swamp regions and taking zillions points of attrition...
I learned my lesson !

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Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:54 pm

caranorn wrote:Some notes:

If you want to recruit additional troops for front line service as the whites early in this scenario go for southern white militia. You have a good number of training officers to train these. Doing so will also require some infantry replacements (as most of those militia upgraded to trained infantry will be lacking elements). That way you can build a substantial infantry force to back up the elite infantry of the three southern white divisions and spare most of the cossack force for other duties (like garrisoning your two early production sites, raiding towards Tsaritsin etc.)...

I'd also go for destroying the isolated bolshevik forces in the Don and Kuban area as soon as possible. Before they can organise they are easy prey and will provide your troops and officers invaluable experience. Just be careful not to lose any of your depleted veteran units. Some of your officers might also be at risk, but I feel it's worthwhile (in destroying those forces I lost three of my division commanders (two of the original infantry division ones plus a substitute), but at the same time I ended up with one 2* promoted to 3*, 2 1* to 2* and a lot of experience to these and others greatly improving their ratings, I could also have promoted other leathers but chose not to for various reasons)). With the Kuban campaign you will also gain access to two strategic cities (which can also become sites to industrialise), open a secure link to the Terek cossacks and any reinforcements from the Caucasian Republics and deny the bolsheviks naval bases for their Don fleet (I believe I may have destroyed it through lack of bases as I also raided towards Lipski with my Cossacks)...

Concerning the lone northern Don Cossack force. I also tried to move it south to the Azov area to link up with Denikin. My plan was to slash and burn as much bolshevik territory as I could along the way, particularly by tearing up the rail tracks both north and south of Tsaritsin. I failed in my primary task as some of the bolsheviks from Tsaritsin managed to block my cossacks and then draw my force into an unequal battle. But while battered, my force escaped back to it's starting positions. But in the meanwhile they and various detachments had captured 3-4 bolshevik settlements, torn up tracks in several locations and kept at least some of the Tsaritsin bolsheviks busy (I saw Stalin with some forces east of Azov, but he never engaged Denikin's army, nor was he able to save any of the Kuban bolsheviks). Then came the year 1919 and the northern Don Cossacks rose up in arms so that I'm considering sending Krasnov north to organise them for the summer of 1919 campaign against Tsaritsin...

So right now my plan for 1919 is to have Krasnov with the northern Don Cossacks strike south and Denikin with the white regulars, trained militia, southern Don Cossacks, some Tereks, Kubans and Caucasians striking north. In the meantime the french and greek expeditions will secure the Crimean which should allow me to send a few additional regulars to Denikin along with direly needed artillery. The North Western whites will try an attack towards Petrograd, but I doubt they will have much success. The forces from Murmansk will probably launch a diversionary attack and simultaneously reinforce Archangelsk. Oh and maybe a force formed around the nucleus of the Terek cossacks will try and capture Astrakan...

P.S.: While manpower and money can at times be short (I often was in the red for money, but several times in 1918 I managed to get a hundred or so and go for more expensive replacements like armoured cars, armoured trains or artillery), I have so far had no problem raising enough replacements to maintain my starting forces and raise new trained militia. By the end of the Kuban campaign of 1918 I could also start increasing my artillery arm (and a third armoured car unit (oh and I accidently bought a gunboat squadron)). Though maybe the people having these problems play with a different attrition set (I left it at default for now as I don't have much time to play these days and just wanted a few fun games to start with)...


Thx caranorn for sharing your experience with us.
This kind of approach looks very promising for me.

greetings

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