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Narwhal
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Cutting features to make RoP better

Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:03 pm

I believe two features, while good on paper, proves to be not so fun to play with. It is pretty radical, but I believe the game would be better without.


- Get rid of the depot BTN
I believe players should not be able to build depot BTN, and in exchange receive more replacements over the year. I believe depot BTN make the game less interesting. I will try to convince you of this.
I am pretty sure most players play RoP with a depleted replacement pool, at least from mid-1758 onward, and for the Infantry and Elite Infantry replacements. Thus, instead of creating new units, most players (including Baris and me) create depot BTN after depot BTN to get those replacements. It allows experienced units to fight again and are therefore the best option.
Because how much one can build is very limited (esp. for the Prussians due to the MP bug) neither players will build anything else than BTN (except the odd supply train / engineers / light infantry from time to time), even though there is quite a large array of buildable units, but those never get constructed. It is a waste, really, it narrows the number of strategies possible (should I build a cavalry force, more fixed guns, or more infantry ?) and it narrows the diversity of the game (less different units, as many of the types of units the Prussian can build are not available from start).
Moreover, creating depot BTN to get new replacements overlaps with the military options to do the same thing, which makes little sense in my opinion.
Finally, this could be a good way to make WSU useful, by rising the cost of buying replacements through the military options in WSU, but making that option opened more often. Right now, WSU is more or less useless, as the Prussian player is constrained by manpower and the Austrian player by money.


- Change the upgrading of the trained infantry

The S7W saw at the beginning of the war an extremely trained Prussian infantry against a “normal” Austrian and French army, and ended with a poor quality (and extremely depleted) Prussian infantry, against a poor quality and depleted Austrian and French army. Not quite so in Rise of Prussia – the “depleted” part is there, but not the gradual loss of quality. Why ? Because all the units get trained to “elite” after only one battle.
Moreover, having a unit trained means it cannot receive “non-elite” replacement, which makes it a burden instead of a boon. Many players complained on this.
I propose the following options :
- Either increase the level at which a unit can become “trained”, or
- Allow a regular replacement to replace a trained infantry, or
- Only allow units to be trained in city level 8+ or fortress level 3+, so the player can “choose” who gets trained and who gets not trained.
- Get rid of trained infantry altogether, and increase the speed at which a unit get experience.

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PhilThib
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Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:54 am

Notes taken :cool:
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Stoertebeker
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Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:54 pm

The S7W saw at the beginning of the war an extremely trained Prussian infantry against a “normal” Austrian and French army, and ended with a poor quality (and extremely depleted) Prussian infantry, against a poor quality and depleted Austrian and French army. Not quite so in Rise of Prussia – the “depleted” part is there, but not the gradual loss of quality. Why ? Because all the units get trained to “elite” after only one battle.
Moreover, having a unit trained means it cannot receive “non-elite” replacement, which makes it a burden instead of a boon. Many players complained on this.


Yes, in my eyes it's totally logical to abandon the concept of automatical upgrades. Units have experience and profit from it: That seems absolutely sufficient to integrate the idea of "battle-hardened" units into the game engine.

- Get rid of trained infantry altogether, and increase the speed at which a unit get experience.


Why? If you say that prussian infantery historically had lost it's quality during the war, why should one allow units to get even more experienced than they get now? It would be great, if units could lose experience by receiving replacements. If that's too hard to program, the gain of experience should at least get slowed down: Why should elements gain experience just by sitting idle in a garrision? This feature should be removed.

I believe players should not be able to build depot BTN, and in exchange receive more replacements over the year. I believe depot BTN make the game less interesting. I will try to convince you of this.
I am pretty sure most players play RoP with a depleted replacement pool, at least from mid-1758 onward, and for the Infantry and Elite Infantry replacements. Thus, instead of creating new units, most players (including Baris and me) create depot BTN after depot BTN to get those replacements. It allows experienced units to fight again and are therefore the best option.
Because how much one can build is very limited (esp. for the Prussians due to the MP bug) neither players will build anything else than BTN (except the odd supply train / engineers / light infantry from time to time), even though there is quite a large array of buildable units, but those never get constructed. It is a waste, really, it narrows the number of strategies possible (should I build a cavalry force, more fixed guns, or more infantry ?) and it narrows the diversity of the game (less different units, as many of the types of units the Prussian can build are not available from start).
Moreover, creating depot BTN to get new replacements overlaps with the military options to do the same thing, which makes little sense in my opinion.
Finally, this could be a good way to make WSU useful, by rising the cost of buying replacements through the military options in WSU, but making that option opened more often. Right now, WSU is more or less useless, as the Prussian player is constrained by manpower and the Austrian player by money.


War Supplies should become more precious, I agree. But why should only the military options cost more WSU? Why not everything?

I see the idea of giving more yearly (thus automatic) replacements to the player and the elimination of Dpt.Btl. with ambivalent feelings: On the one hand, you're right: The player would have to consider the building of new troops and to make choices among them, thus giving the building part of the game a real strategical meaning.

On the other hand, I would really like to control what to build. So, another possibility would be to give the player no replacement chits on regular automatical basis but ressources at hand plus the possibility to build Dpt.Btl. of every type.

Okay, it would still be more reasonable to build Dpt.Btl. during a fairly aggressive game (not only because you profit from the experience but also because you lose NM by losing elements). But hey: why not? If you can decide, which replacements you want to build, you would have to make the same reasoning as if you had to build new units.

(One could consider to make replacements more expensive than newly created regiments, but I don't know how this could be justified historically. It would at least balance the experience-issue, if it's not possible to let experience drop through greenhorns: imo it would really be the most realistic and most elegant solution to let experience drop overproportional if replacements arrive: The player would really have to consider, if replacements are worth their money and if it would not be better to keep on fighting with semi-depleted but battle-hardened elements,)

A feature that could really be cut, in my opinion, is the automatical merging of replacement chits into regular units. That favors replacements even more.

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Charles
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Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:59 pm

I personally like being able to build depot battalions. As a player, I like to have the flexibility to be able to quickly raise replacements, if the need arises, even if I have to pay extra for it. During the SYW, there were many instances on both sides were they would scramble and resort to shortcuts to find replacements when there was a manpower shortage.
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