Bertram
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Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:02 pm

Of course, and I understand the difficult balancing act between showing the outside influences on the war without giving the player the feeling the outcome is outside his influence.

It will be better once each nationality has its own faction, with its own morale, manpower end money pools :D .

Bertram
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Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:50 am

Late October, turn 52
My men retreat to Magdenburg, without the Austrians attacking them. I have a good view of the Austrian army, milling around t Torgau. There seem to be 10 column's there. There might be 150.000 to 200.000 men in their army. To stop them I have 23.000 men in Magdenburg... This is all there is remaining from the Prussian army.

At Stralsund we still have made no breach. The engineer does not seem to help. The Austrians make a breach at Torgau. At Olmutz we still are at two breaches..
(edit: I am told that it is very difficult to make breaches in suppied harbors. So the siege of Stralsund is pretty useless).
I send the troops at Stettin a bit south, otherwise the Russians could march unopposed to Berlin. It leaves Stettin undefended, except for the garrison.

No men are recruited. I am still out of replacements - except for light infantry and militia and assorted other replacements. Of those I have 35.000 men in reserve.

Bertram
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Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:43 am

Early November, turn 53
We take Olmutz, the enemy takes Torgau. I don't think this is a good exchange, though I come out one morale ahead (I lose one for Torgau, get two for Olmutz). To make matters worse, my force at Olmutz is hit by Typhus. I lose about 4-5000 men.
I have to make a decision what to do with my forces here (after the winter). I can push to the west, to Prague. Prague is 7 regions west of Olmutz, without major towns in between. A long way. And there might be some Austrians near Prague that would take exception...
As alternative I can push to the south west, to Brunn. That is a strategic town, 3 regions away, and halfway to Wien. As added bonus there are several unfortified towns near Brunn - ripe for the picking. But are my forces enough to pull this off?
The third alternative is retreating... Use my men against the Russians - I need more manpower there. Not sure yet...
The first snow of the season has arrived in the north and in Austria.

I buy a Hessian replacement for a change. They will need to stop the French next year, and are still down on manpower form the fight 12 months ago.

Bertram
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Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:47 am

Finishing the year in one post... not much happens in winter.

Late November, turn 54
Nothing happens... we are preparing for winter. The snow has retreated to the mountains in Austria (this is the same pattern, in the same month as last year - is this random or not?).
I order Kurt to retreat from Olmutz to Troppau. I expect the enemy to get too much troops in Wien over the winter to make an advance advisable.

I notice something odd about my manpower. At the start of the turn an amount is added (from 1 to 58 in this case), but after the turn is resolved, in day 15, this number is lowered again (to 37). Why?

I have no men to buy anything.

Early December, turn 55
More of nothing...
Kurt arrives in Troppau, and goes on to Kosel. Wilhelm is on the move to Stettin. No men to buy anything.

Late December, turn 56
More of the same... Wilhelm arrives in Stettin., Kurt in Troppau. I buy a Grenadier depot btn.
I solve the riddle of the manpower display. During the turn is goes down when you buy units. It seems this is only at the display side of things, not at the database side. At the start of the turn resolution the display reverts to the database numbers, and the amount spend on buying troops is substracted at the end of the turn resolution. It is comparable to the stance of the units - if you change it during the turn(say from passive - after a battle - to defending) it will go back at the start of the turn resolution, and change once again during the turn resoution. working ok :)

Ardie
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Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:46 pm

This has been interesting to read.

Also it does suggest that "winter quarters" -house rule could be wise. It saves a lot of manpower.

Bertram
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Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:31 am

A winter quarters house rule in the form of "I should not march in winter" is smart. In fact in a next game I will move less in winter than I did in this one. Especially in the campaign you need to preserve forces.
(You can also preserve forces by splitting up the columns and armies in brigades - "poor sanitation" and "typhus" hit stacks, and "poor sanitation" hits you largest stack. They both do a % of the stack as damage, so if your largest stack is 2000 men instead of 20.000 you save quite a lot of men. But that is a bit to much micro management for me).

A winter quarter house rule in the form "it is forbidden to move in winter" isn't needed. In fact I like my opponent marching around in winter - the more the better :D .


Early January 1758, turn 57
We switched over to version 1.03 beta 4. It has some problems of its own (especially the display of the elements in a brigade), but solves the Russian supply problem, and gives the Cossacks replacements. We had no difficulties with the compatibility (though you have to save the files somewhere else before you update, and need to replace them after you do).
Nothing happens in the game, except that I get 100 additional manpower (1000 men). Unfortunately poor sanitation costs me 2000 men.
I buy 3 replacement btn.

Late January, turn 58
More of the same, lots of nothing. Additional men due to the "spring" recruiting. I buy two replacement btn, and get some replacements from the ledger. I also can get a British brigade for 10 engagement points (cheap!!). I lose 2000 men due to poor sanitation.
On a related note: in beta 4 you can change militia replacements in line replacements, at a rate of 2 for 1, with some additional costs. (I would like it better if it was 1 to 1, with costs, as the number of men is the same, the difference is the training and the costs involved). But I ran out of Prussian militia! The 20 replacement units I had are used up by the 16 elements in the game - and without them fighting a battle. Seems the turnover is about 100% in half a year - if not fighting.

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squarian
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Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:45 pm

Bertram wrote:We switched over to version 1.03 beta 4. It has some problems of its own (especially the display of the elements in a brigade), but solves the Russian supply problem, and gives the Cossacks replacements.


Actually, my cossacks seem to still be drawing cavalry replacements - perhaps because the unit models are fixed in the savegame files and unaffected by any future patch?

I'm running a solitaire game to test this and other new features from beta 4, but if anyone else can confirm that cossacks are indeed drawing raider replacements under beta 4, I'd appreciate it.

Likewise, the Russian merchant ships which are supposed to provide sea supply for the Russians haven't appeared - I suspect the same cause, our having started under an earlier patch and now playing with "obsolete" game data in our save files.

On a related note: in beta 4 you can change militia replacements in line replacements, at a rate of 2 for 1, with some additional costs. (I would like it better if it was 1 to 1, with costs, as the number of men is the same, the difference is the training and the costs involved).


Bertram, have you seen the militia events actually working on your side? I don't believe they are working for my Austrians & Co., which might be the same problem as above - i.e. we started under a different patch. However, AFAICT it isn't working in my test game either (which I started clean under beta 4).

I agree about the 1:1 militia conversion ratio - given that scarce manpower should be a feature of this war, I'm not sure we should get any breaks on the exchange rate. Design team, what do you think about this?

Baris
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Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:35 pm

Yes Squarian in the latest beta cossacks still drawing cavalry replacements not raider. Even with russian supply ships Koenigsberg fortress was partially out of supply espeically in winter maybe harsh weather at sea.

-Corrected Cossacks families to use Raider replacements (not cavalry)
-Modified the number of Militia replacements added each year, plus an automatic militia into line replacement conversion beyond a certain level

these are not so true about beta patch :)

Bertram
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Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:29 am

Early February, turn 59
No movement. An additional 100 manpower/1000 men, but also an 2000 loss to poor sanitation. I buy a bunch of artillery (the Brummers), to strengthen my main army.
The situation:
In the east I have lost East Prussia. The Russians have a foothold near Stettin, and will be in supply next year. Opposing them is a small army. Help is underway in the form of Kurt, who is marching from Kossel, but he recently lost 4000 men to Typhus.
In the West the French are massing their men south of Kassel. They do have a 2-1 advantage, even after my victories there this year. I think I can keep them out, though I might lose Kassel.
In the north the Swedish are down to Stralsund. I ignore them for now - we will see how much of a problem they will be this year.
In Saxony the Austrians have conquered most of the towns. They have between 150.000 and 200.000 men, which are blocked by my main army. This army numbers about 20.000 at the moment, and has lost 6.000 men to poor sanitation the last 3 turns. Unless things get better here (the chance for poor sanitation to hit is 15%, so 3 times in a row is very unlucky), this army will be overrun in spring. Then there is nothing stopping the Austrians to take the rest of Prussia.
Morale wise I am at 122 morale, my opponent at 99. Morale will decrease every 5 turns by one, regardless of events - due to war weariness.
I have 2900 VP against 1600 for my opponent - pretty good. He gets 2 more from cities each turn - but we can ignore that. The majority of points comes from winning battles.
I also have 44 engagement points (and nothing useful to spend it on), 1110 thousand Thalers (idem), 6 conscript companies and 638 war supply.


Late February, turn 60
The enemy is on the move. Austrian troops in Torgau are moving out of their winter quarters, and are moving - west? I'll wait a bit to see where they go...
A replacement btn is bought.

Bertram
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Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:37 pm

Early March, turn 61
The Austrians indeed seem to be moving west from Leipzig and Torgau. A small force stays in Torgau, in Halle there are two column's, and Daun is moving west through Erfurt. If I can take the force in Hale, I might even try to take back Torgau and Dresden.... There must be something I am not seeing, this looks like too good to be true....
I order my new British brigade to Kassel - looks like there will be some battles there...
I also have a brigade in Dusseldorf. As all French seem to be south of Kassel, they will inspect the Koln defenses once again.

Late March, turn 62
It is confirmed that one Austrian army is moving west. Staying in Halle is another Austrian army. A third force under Picolomini is moving from Torgau to Berlin. It's size isn't known yet. I got to stop this one....
The army moving west will probably try to attack Kassel, together with the French. If the Austrians occupy Hanover they will knock a large part of my men out of the war. Still, my army at Kassel is twice as strong as my Prussian army, so I like this move by the Austrians.
My brigade lays siege to Koln. One siege gun and a sapper unit is brought along.

I buy several replacements again, I am awash in manpower these turns. Still , it isn't enough to replace the losses through "poor sanitation" that occurred during the winter.
My troops arrive in Koln and lay siege.

Bertram
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Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:51 am

Early April, turn 63
Kurt has arrived in Glogau. I order him west, to Cotbus. That way he will arrive behind Picolomini.
I won't move my armies in front of Picolomini, I think the remaining forces in Halle are more dangerous.
There is a strange battle near Koln. My 3500 men here are attacked by 1300 French, mostly cavalry. My men not only lose, 430 men against 130 French,they also lose 4 infantry elements. My 4300 men do NO ranged casualties at all on the French....
It seems there is a hero unit in the French stack (due to a bug in the beta 4 release of the patch, some units get enormous firepower and cohesion. Thus far the units are al on the Austrian side).

I buy a Grenadier depot btn. Some of my units do not recover men. When looking closer, I saw those units consisted of men trained up to elite status.... they need Grenadier units to recover. Unfortunately you can only buy Grenadier depot btn replacements once each turn, and sometimes less. So I have actually common replacements to spare at the moment!!

Late April, turn 64
Picolomini arrives at Brandenburg. I send Heinrich east to the region beside Brandenburg, to lift the siege if needed.
Lots of enemy units arrive south and south-east of Kassel. My men prepare for battle. It is a wooded region here, which favors the defender. There is a slight terrain bonus to the defender, and the attacker is limited in the number of units he can deploy at once. I also have quite a number of canon in my force, with a commander (Moritz von Schaumberg) that gives a 20% bonus to the canon in his stack. I cannot say that I am convinced that I can win the battle, but I am sure I can hurt the enemy...
Squarian reports there is indeed a hero unit in the stack that fought at Koln. He retreats the unit from active duty...

I buy a regular depot btn. I have actually 12 infantry elements to spare!!

Baris
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Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:09 am

Your forces are mostly from grenadiers and you can not find replacements who are figting up front? is it changing fast? what is the ratio of regulars to grenadiers now? i wont give any spoilers to squarian :)

Bertram
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Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:38 am

It isn't only Grenadiers, it is also Elite soldiers that need Grenadier replacements.

Militia (discipline 2-5) go to Conscript Infantry (discipline 6-7), go to Line Infantry (discipline 7-8), go to Trained Infantry (discipline 8?), go to Elite Infantry (discipline8-9(?)) when trained.
(NB: this data is tentative, mostly correct, but gathered by observation, not by viewing the inside of the game engine).

Militia needs militia replacements. Conscript, trained and line infantry needs regular infantry replacements. Elite infantry (and Grenadiers) need elite replacements.

About 50% of my units (NOT my soldiers!) are trained up to elite infantry status. The normal infantry units get filled out again, and lost elements are (now) replaced. The trained up half of my army does not get filled out again, and certainly has the lost elements not replaced.

This would be not so bad if I could merge the depleted elements, or could disband them in exchange for elite replacements. But as it is I have lots of elite elements consisting of 17 or 34 soldiers (and grenadiers of 12-24).
Those are useless. They can not be used in battle -they die with a single hit, their brigades meld away real fast, and when they do battle they take the place in line of another unit that has better staying power. When they die they adversely affect the morale of the column they are part of.
So you end up with using the most experienced soldiers as garrisons and police units.
(I tried it out: disbanding a 3 element elite soldiers regiment, consisting of 17, 34 and 17 men would cost me 171 VP and 3 NM. Not an option...).

It isn't easy to solve this.
Disbanding and adding to the elite replacement pool is probably the easiest way, but still would need some programming in the base game.
Merging would also be good, but also would need some programming (and what experience level (as in number of stars) would the new unit have?).
Having the elite infantry units use regular replacements would be another option, but would undermine the idea of having the quality of the army (armies) degrade over time (as it was in reality).
(This last isnt working right anyway, the quality of my soldiers rises during the war, due to training. A good point for discussion).

Baris
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Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:57 am

no i mean elite soldiers,for example you purchased Conscript Infantry after many battles it upgraded to elite infantry so it needs elite replacements but im asking that did your regular soldiers(most of it) upgraded to elite very quickly so you wont replace them much?which results you lose the army as it dont have enough replacements. in game there is few elite replacements generally. and does militia to Conscript Infantry upgrade needs less experience than regular to elite upgrade?

Baris
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Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:59 am

oh ok thanks

Baris
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Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:12 am

i think the most problems in ROP are coming from replacements,it need a very fine tune and system because all system depends on replacements. also as you said many times you only buy grenaider depots not soldiers. it is also time comsuming for programmer and players to talk about or have the correct tune. maybe it is better to tune via the military options. it is correct that elite soldiers must not have so much elite replacements but as 50 percent of the forces upgrade to that status they are more useless than militia as they dont have enough replacements.

Bertram
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Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:04 am

Early May, turn 65
17(!!!) units receive a complete infantry element. That takes care of my reserve of infantry elements....
Kurt arrives in Cotbus. I order him from Cotbus to the west. He will go to the east bank of the Elbe (to Elstar), where he can cross to either Torgau or Dresden.
Picolomini retreats from Brandenburg to Torgau. As a result Heinrich is also ordered back, but one region south of Magdenburg.
Two enemy cavalry brigades, under Hadik, move on to Wittenberge. Irritating... I send Wedell that way, his column can't fight a regular battle anyway.
The Austrian force near Kassel indeed engages my forces there. There seems to be some political wrangling going on - not Daun, but Charles de Soubise is commanding the enemy force. This is fortunate, as Daun is the better commander by far. The coordination of enemy attacks is lacking as well. No wonder, when working with French and Austrian troops, attacking trough the woods from different directions.
The enemy first attacks on the 23 of April. The battle rages all day (6 rounds). It starts with the Alsace column and the French army reserves attacking my main forces. (16 of 63 enemy units engage 26 of 68 units) They do get hit pretty hard by my artillery when advancing, so much so that the French army formation retreats (63 hits inflicted, 26 hits suffered). In round 2 I have a major manpower advantage (8 of 52 enemy units engage 18 of 68 of my units - 47 hits inflicted, 17 suffered). In the 3th round the Austrian "German army" formation joins the fight. This moment the fight hangs in balance (28 of 61 enemy units engage 25 of 68 units) several of my units are forced to retreat (47 hits inflicted, 28 hits suffered). Round 4 sees an numerical advantage for the enemy - 26 of 63 units engage 16 of 67 of my units. My superior training - and lots of artillery - still has me inflict 46 hits, while suffering only 26. The next round I manage to get some reserves in (31 of 62 enemy units engage 27 of 68 units). The damage dealt is still in my favor (48 hits dealt, 18 suffered). Battle is still raging when darkness falls (28 of 62 enemy units engage 27 of 62 units)(6 rounds is maximum). I inflict 56 hits and suffer 28.
In total 55.000 of my men under Ferdinand von Braunsweig (5-3-4) engaged 81.000 French and Austrian troops under Charles de Soubise (4-1-1). On my side were 540 canon, while the enemy had 118. I lost 3400 men (one infantry element), the enemy lost 6200 (3 infantry elements).
I get 6 morale points.
The battle is resumed next day. None of the combatants is willing to yield - it is another all day battle. The enemy starts to engage slowly (first round 14 of 52 enemy units engage 27 of 70 units). The pattern of the day before resumes - I deal 48 hits, and suffer 14. The second round sees 26 of 63 enemy units engage 28 of 69 of my units. 63 hits inflicted, 23 suffered. On the enemy side the German army reserves retreat from the battle. Round 3 has 20 enemy units (of 52) engage my 27 (of 69). Once again the casualty odds are on my side (57 dealt, 17 suffered). Round 4 sees the German army reserves joining again. (?). The combatants are now in balance (26 of 62 enemy units against 26 of 69 of mine). I inflict 56 hits against 23. My troops are wavering - the next round sees 29 (of 62) enemy units against 24 (of 68) of my troops. Hits inflicted 53, suffered 21. Once again the battle rages till dark - and my men recover somewhat (26 of 64 enemy units engage 27 of 69 of my troops). Hits inflicted 43 against 22. The British under Gransby are forced to retreat from the region.
In total the remaining 51.000 men under Ferdinand engaged 75.000 men under Charles. I lost 3200 men (no elements), Charles lost 7400 men, 3 infantry elements. We got 7 morale.
Charles had enough of the fight - his men didn't attack after that. 3 days later a column under Karl Kheul (3-3-4) arrives. Unaware that the battle has been fought - or rather gung ho - he attacks my troops. After one round he breaks of, as no other troops join him. He losses 1100 men, I 600. I get one morale point.
All in all it is a resounding victory - I lost 7200 men, against 14900 on the enemy side. And I got 14 morale. Points to consider though: Daun didn't join, nor did the column he had with his Schlesian army. The enemy still has a strong numerical majority (and I get information that he has got more French mercenaries in the Netherlands). But for now it is looking good.
I order Gransby to resume his position at Kassel.
As a result of the battle(s) we now have 131 morale, against 75 for the enemy. We also have 3100 victory points, against 1700.

I buy a Grenadier depot btn and 2 regular ones.

enf91
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Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:30 pm

Wow. What a battle!

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Hohenlohe
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Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:57 pm

Congratulations!! It is a wonderful result for the Prussian Coalition seems rather historic, as often enough the Prussian side had a high morale advantage and even a troop quality advantage. But this were mainly Prussian allied german forces together with the British Expedition troops as I understand. So it was an even higher success for my beloved Prussian side.
Superiority in manpower seems not to be a major fact here, but moretheless a good leader is very decisive as it happened historically in that era.
I suggest the use of Prince Heinrich as an army commander at the Prussian side because he was slightly better than his king-brother related to battle outcome and success. Sofar I know had Prince Heinrich never lost a decisive battle and he even won the last decisive battle in Saxony during the last campaign year against a superior force.
Although from south german origin I love the early the friderician Prussian era.
From Napoleon it exists a citation which he said as he stood aside the sarcophagus of Frederic the Great: "If he still was alive I would not stand here..." Napoleon showed great respect for Frederic the Great...

Please give us more reports about your campaign. I love that ones...


greetings

Hohenlohe
R.I.P. Henry D.

In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...

Bertram
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Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:54 am

Prince Heinrich is indeed a rather good leader. He has a trait that gives him an additional unit "in the line" when on defense.. I haven't had time to send him west ythough, and creating an additional army is difficult (and removing a leader will cost).

Late May, turn 66
The troops at Kassel clash again - 11 (of 51) elements of my troops are attacked by two columns of the enemy (19 of 61 elements). After suffering almost as much hits as we deal (37 suffered, 43 dealt), the troops decide that it is better to retreat. So the enemy is in possession of the field at Kassel after all. The garrison is minimal - just 2 militia elements - so a quick surrender is expected. We prepare for the long march north (there are no supplies near).
We do win one morale for this victory.
The cavalry under Hadik retreats again - our troops under Wedell rejoin Frederic. Due to bad weather Kurt cannot cross the Elbe at Dresden, so he stays on the east bank.

I buy another grendier btn.

Early June, turn 67
The French immediately make a breach at Kassel. I still have no breach at Koln - might be the harbor? I decide to retreat there.
Kurt is ordered to take Dresden. It is unfortified. Keith is ordered south to assist - I might have to fight the Austrians at Halle.
I buy a Hessian grenadier btn for a change.

Bertram
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:41 am

Late June, turn 68
Kurt crosses the Elbe to Dresden. The Austrians are caught napping, and the whole garrison is destroyed. (I suspect the enemy troops were inside Dresden, Dresden isn't fortified anymore, and I had Kurt assault at once). Of the 8800 enemies under Karl Colloredo (3-1-2) only 400 survive (they are in the supply train and fortress artillery I capture!). I lose 2800 men. The enemy loses 90(!) infantry elements. I gain 8 morale and 5 engagement points.
This shows once again that you really don't want to have your troops inside a structure - when things go wrong they will die to the man, or surrender.
I order my main army under Frederic towards Kothen. This is between Halle and Torgau, threatening both. Hopefully this will prevent the Austrians from retaking Dresden.
5 of the commanders under Kurt can get promoted - but I cannot disperse the force to take advantage of this. I separate one of the commanders for promotion.

There are no grenadier btn to have, so I buy a Hanoverian artillery instead. I think they are going to need it.

Bertram
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Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:40 am

Early July, turn 69
My men in Dresden stay unmolested. The Austrians concentrate their army in Leipzig. There seems to be an army (the Sachsische Armee under Lucchese) and 3 columns there. I expect them to attack Dresden. I order my men to defend, but fall back if needed.
I order two columns to Oschat (north of Dresden) and my army and a third column to Torgau. My "elite" column with depleted units gets to go to Halle - it is almost deserted by the Austrians.

Late July, turn 70
The Austrian army retreats to Erfurt, to join with Daun, coming from Kassel. That leaves me with room to take the other towns... I order Kurt from Dresden south, to threaten Prague. My other columns converge on Leipzig, except a small force that lays siege to Torgau.
Some Russians arrived at Stettin, and are laying siege there. I send Wilhelm and his column from Berlin to keep them busy.
The Swedish are moving around as well, but don't do much to worry about. They are real slow.

Bertram
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Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:21 am

Late July, turn 70
The Austrian army retreats to Erfurt, to join with Daun, coming from Kassel. That leaves me with room to take the other towns... I order Kurt from Dresden south, to threaten Prague. My other columns converge on Leipzig, except a small force that lays siege to Torgau.
Some Russians arrived at Stettin, and are laying siege there. I send Wilhelm and his column from Berlin to keep them busy.
The Swedish are moving around as well, but don't do much to worry about. They are real slow.

Early August, turn 71
My plans didn't really work out this turn.
Kurt met an Austrian force coming north from Prague. No battle, but the Austrian force is about twice as strong, so Kurt has to fall back and concentrate his column.
The Army at Torgau was forbidden to move to Leipzig, because the Austrians still controlled Torgau (a separate column had them besieged, but this does not count). I have the army take another road. Torgau is holding, no breaches.
I order Wedell to build a depot in Halle - it seems the enemy is concentrating in Erfurt, we need some supplies close.
I did send Wilhelm from Berlin to Stettin, to relieve the siege there. He finds some Cossacks on his path, and is stopped right there (power of the Cossack unit 4, power of Wilhelm about 1000, but he is not allowed to continue, not even next turn).
I buy a grenadier depot unit.

Baris
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Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:55 am

Hello Bertram.
Thats alot of loss of troops for austria in Dresden(90 infantry elements maybe to much :) )but it isnt fortified(after your assault), but apart from that then the main use for cities or fortifications are i guess for winter quartering and speed up the replacements that armies receieve, maybe forts must have some other advantage in defence.in assault stage after breach i guess there is frontage penalty for the attacker. or does it?
what units do you mostly purchase i read the aar but i mostly see depot type of units.

note:sorry to ask here but how do you determine which units has missing elements in ledger,by sorting health it can be misleading. or you determine by the end of each skirmish in battle report by inspecting each army? thanks

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squarian
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Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:15 pm

baris30 wrote:Hello Bertram.
Thats alot of loss of troops for austria in Dresden(90 infantry elements maybe to much :)


My sentiments exactly! :D But in truth, it was a very fishy result and if the engine were to reproduce it very often, I would suspect something wrong with the assault algorithm. As it is, I'll just chalk it up as yet another Austrian disaster.

the main use for cities or fortifications are i guess for winter quartering and speed up the replacements that armies receieve, maybe forts must have some other advantage in defence.


I'm not convinced that the rules governing fortresses and siege have been perfected. Pocus has added some important improvements in the last few patches, and perhaps I just need to examine them very carefully. However, my mere impression, though one based on some considerable playing time, is that siege is roulette - a fortress well-appointed in all requisites can still fall in a turn and conversely a fortress held by a starving company of broken-down invalids can hold out for months.

Beyond their fundamental purpose of resisting siege, though, fortresses certainly do have value - most especially as raid-proof depots. A supply line based on unfortified depots can be very hazardous, especially for the Prussian player who faces a horde of Austrian and Russian light cavalry. Since most fortresses are also depots, both sides but especially the Prussians benefit from not having to detach enormous quantities of troops to protect their depots from raids.


in assault stage after breach i guess there is frontage penalty for the attacker. or does it?


I know the answer is buried here in the forum - probably in the AACW section, where most of the mechanical issues have been dealt with one way or another - but the search function has defeated me on this. Anyone else?

what units do you mostly purchase i read the aar but i mostly see depot type of units.


Can't speak for Bertram, but from the Austrian side my revenue is so low that I have no choice but to stick to depot bns for replacements. In 1756/7 I was able to buy a few new-built bns and regts, but not since - the horrendous casualties I've suffered in the campaign of 1757 have left so many bns reduced to cadres, I must either focus on replacements or leave half my potential field force in the rear.

As an observation for players more familiar with AACW, this makes a very strong contrast with that game - you're not building up an army as you fight, you have to fight with the army you have (sorry, Mr. Rumsfeld).

The one exception derives apparently from a glitch I'm hoping will be addressed in the next patch - at the moment the Austrian player is never given the chance to build new Wuerttemburg or Bavarian bns, and since I lost all but one Bavarian and a handful of Wur bns in the fighting around Leipzig in '57, I now have an enormous surplus of Wur and Bav replacement manpower I'd dearly love to make use of.

Baris
AGEod Guard of Honor
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Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:56 pm

Thanks Squarian,it was very well written and detailed post, and just to the point, Yes i also think that results of most assaults are deadly for a defender, (which is not that realistic,also war prisoners taken looks high)defender must feel more secure when in a city or fort and there must be fever casualties for a defender,maybe the attacker must have more frontage penalty unless he brings more artilery vs..(if there is penalty in theory) i practiced some games in ACW and found the price of units and general expenditure from resources more balanced ,and loyalty concept more logical to me(achieved by 3 years of testing and balancing ofcourse,like this system is meant to be perfectly fit for acw ). also as you said buying other than depot units is not practical in game because of huge need of replacements.
it will get better and find its unique flavour.

Bertram
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Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:07 pm

The destoying of 90 elements was certainly a bit much. I think several things came together to come to this result.
- first (I think) the elements were all very depleted. They did garrison duty to recover, and that was for a reason.
- second, the Austrian morale was 79 at the time, the Prusian was 121. This gives the Austrian a 10% penalty, and the Prusian a 10% bonus.
- third, I had a much better commander.
So the stage was set for a rather lopsided battle.

Then the Austrians were inside the structure. ROP (and all Ageod games) consider those forces blocked when there is a enemy force outside. They can not move to an other region before moving outside and winning a battle (or in rare cases moving outside and sitting next to the enemy, when both are in passive mode). So if the force inside the structure loses a battle, there is no option to retreat, they have to take the losses as long as the enemy has enough morale to attack. (This might be a bit unrealistic when the force inside is 10.000 or 20.000 men, and the attacker has a force just a bit larger, but it is how it works. If you have that much men you are advised to put a small garrison inside, and put the majority outside the structure. It has the added benefit that the attacker has to fight twice, and often stops after driving the defender outside the walls off).

And finally there both a terrain bonus for the defender and a limit on the number of elements (or units) that can attack and defend during a siege/assault (or during any battle - it is differend depending on terrain and other considerations). This usually works in the advantage of the defender, especially when he has a small number of units, and the attacker has to attack with an even smaller number of units. BUT, taken together with the depleted status of the Austrian elements, it here actually works against him. Lets for the moment suppose that the defender has a large number of elements, all of 17 men. The attacker has the same number of men totall, but in a lesser number of elements, as his elements al consist of the maximal 170 men. When the number of elements in the "frontline" is limited to a small number on each side, the attacker will have a 10-1 advantage in men at the front (even when it is limited in a 2-1 advantage for the defender, this is still a 5-1 advantage). The defender will only scratch the attackers, the attackers will wipe out the defending elements (especially when the attacker has the advantages descriped above). Next round the defender will send in the next wave of depleted elements - rinse and repeat till the defender breaks and runs for it - except in an assault he cant. So even with an equal number of men, the attacker can have a 10-1 advantage in the fight, when fighting depleted units (this is of course the extreme situation, with the attacker al filled out, and the defender maximally depleted).

In reality of course, this would not be the case. If the number of men that could defend the wall was equal to 4 elements (4 x 170 men), then the commander would not send just 4 elements when they were depleted to 17 men each - in that case he would send 40 elements, so he would have the same number of men on the defence. And the defending commander would probably have merged several of those elements - if only because their commanding officers would have been depleted to.

This is why (serious) depleted units (or elements) should be kept from a battle, and this is why it is a problem that there is no mechanism to merge depleted elements (even if only within the same regiment) or disband them into a force pool (well, you can do that, but it will cost you the game, as the NM and VP costs are so high that disbanding a few of them wil drop both to 0).

I agree (somewhat) on the sieges. Most are now over in two turns, but some keep going and going, without the size of the garrison (or the number of guns, or the kind of troops/discipline/morale) making a difference (as far as I can see). It is a gamble, and both extremes are a bit odd. As it is I usually defend only with the minimum of troops - it does not make a difference anyway. That is not historical - important fortresses were garrisoned more heavily - one presumes that had a function.

In addition to the use as secure depots, the fortresses also work the other way around - they break the supply line of the enemy. You might get away with bypassng a fort during a summer campaign, but you need to keep a screening force at the fort. So bypassing several will deplete your main force - and you will need to take those forts before settling down for winter.

Fianlly I also purchase mostly replacements. As Prusian I have loads of money (at one point I had a million gold to spare) and warsupply. I am chronically short on men though. Except for the recruiting months (januari - march(?)) I get about 30 men each turn (a bit more when winning battles or losing men due to poor sanitation or attrition). As a regular depot unit costs 51 men, I can usually buy a unit each other turn. (And as per above - depleted elements are useless, and even dangerous (they cost morale when destoyed by the enemy), so you want to fill them out whenever possible).

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squarian
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Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:03 pm

Bertram wrote:The destoying of 90 elements was certainly a bit much. I think several things came together to come to this result.
- first (I think) the elements were all very depleted. They did garrison duty to recover, and that was for a reason.
- second, the Austrian morale was 79 at the time, the Prusian was 121. This gives the Austrian a 10% penalty, and the Prusian a 10% bonus.
- third, I had a much better commander.
So the stage was set for a rather lopsided battle.


All very true - and these factors do help to explain such an extreme result. I just don't want to make a habit of it. :D

This might be a bit unrealistic when the force inside is 10.000 or 20.000 men, and the attacker has a force just a bit larger, but it is how it works. If you have that much men you are advised to put a small garrison inside, and put the majority outside the structure. It has the added benefit that the attacker has to fight twice, and often stops after driving the defender outside the walls off


Would you mind explaining this to Marechal de Clermont, wherever you've put him for the duration? :mdr:

BUT, taken together with the depleted status of the Austrian elements, it here actually works against him...This is why (serious) depleted units (or elements) should be kept from a battle, and this is why it is a problem that there is no mechanism to merge depleted elements (even if only within the same regiment) or disband them into a force pool (well, you can do that, but it will cost you the game, as the NM and VP costs are so high that disbanding a few of them wil drop both to 0).


You know much more about the mechanics of combat than I do, Bertram - I'm impressed. I've just now discovered that the "combine unit" button which is handy for merging weak units in AACW also exists/works in ROP - I just merged a bunch of cadre-strength cossacks. That might have made a difference in the Dresden battle - converting some of those 17-man elements into 80-man might have made the narrow battle-front harder to crack. Ah well - live and learn.


Fianlly I also purchase mostly replacements. As Prusian I have loads of money (at one point I had a million gold to spare) and warsupply. I am chronically short on men though.


An interesting mirror image - I never have enough money, but I have 1400 conscripts - which of course I'll never use.

War supply, at least as defined at present, is AFAICT almost completely irrelevant - a hold-over from AACW, though even in that game WS never seems to matter much. While at least the concept of war materiel makes sense for mid-19th c. America, I'm not sure it's even conceptually valid for mid-18th c. central Europe. The most recent attempt to investigate the "sinews of war" in the 7YW devotes considerable space to finance and logistics, but materiel - what the manual describes WS as representing - is hardly mentioned.

Baris
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1914
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:50 pm

Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:19 pm

Excellent post thanks, from what i understand that in battles or in assaults the game engine only takes into account the number elements(not the actual number of men in elements,)in deciding the commitments in frontline(depends on terrain) in both sides.so thats why this can result more destruction on depleted elements fighting against an superior side, which results unrealistic battle results. (i also didnt see merge units button Squarian, this makes difference than :)

in my campaign i also noticed where i was low in manpower but lots of money and war supplies,maybe we must invent some diplomatic options and find a good way of using it. maybe some allies joining the battle, (with some brainstorming and history knowledge :)

Bertram
Posts: 454
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Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:03 am

The merge button only solves part of the problem: it has regiments merge. This helps if you have several regiments of one element, they merge to one regiment with the number of elements you had in the seperate regiments.
But the elements are still as large (or as small) as they used to be, so if you merge 5 regiments that al had a single element of 17 men, you now have a regiment of 5 elements, with each element still of 17 men.
I would like to merge those elements in to one new element as well, of 85 men...

Mind you, I shiuld have mede a disclaimer in the previous post - this is how I think it works, but I could be wrong :D


Late August, turn 72
This is the turn of the enemy cavalry - they are popping up everywhere. As my cavalry got all killed in the first few battles, there isn't much I can do.
I took Leipzig this turn. The enemy is massing two regions south-west of Leipzig. I order my troops to the region in between. "my troops" consist of Frederic his army and two columns, Heinrich's and Keith's. Wedell will stay at Halle, ready to march to the sound of the guns. We are once again outnumbered - this battle will be pretty important.
I made a breach at Torgau, the enemy at Stettin. My relief army will attack the enemy at Stettin next turn. I might have send those men to Leipzig as well, but it is now too late.

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