Bertram
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Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:05 pm

Just after posting my "halfway there" we have hit a bit of a snag. As detailed elsewhere (http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=18366 ) we have some trouble with the infantry vs cavalry battle results. Squarian has his supply system guarded by infantry brigades. As a result of the easy with which my cavalry brigade can destroy his infantry brigades, this cavalry brigade can roll his complete suply system - hopping from one depot to the next, killing off the infantry brigades, and drawing supply from the depots.

Though great fun for me :D , this is a tad unrealistic. So for now we will wait a bit to see what the Powers That Be have to say about this problem...


Meanwhile I will post the turns that we alredy have run, edited so they don't show my genius masterplan to defeat the perfide Austrians. :neener:

Late May, turn 90
I reach Leipzig, Daun arrives back in Torgau. It is a way to defend Berlin I suppose....
I forgot to assault Leipzig. I order one column to assault it this turn, the others will dig in and await Daun.
A detachment takes Chemnitz (once again).
Not much other developments.
I raise a cavalry unit.


Early June, turn 91
Spring season is almost over. The Austrians are sieging Munster and Bautzen (a bit east of Dresden). At both places they hit the garrison, destroying the unit at Bautzen. They also send a siege unit to Olmutz, preparing to take back the part of Austria I occupied. I had expected this earlier...
I take Leipzig, gaining 6 (!!) morale. Daun stays in Torgau.
I send Wutginau to Munster, to try chase away the French.
Still waiting on the attack... contemplating going west with my army, attacking the French from behind. A bit wild though...
I buy another grenadier depot btn.


Late June, turn 92
Bautzen is lost. I am surprised it was not taken earlier.
At Munster the French reinforcements arrive just days before Wutginau does. He does not get the information on time, and attacks, only to be beaten back. I lose 2400 men, the enemy 3100, but they stay around Munster. I retreat, and lose one morale.
Wedell his men are almost up to strength at last. I detach the two most depleted brigades, and send the rest of his column together with Frederic to Stettin again.
The main armies of Austria and Prussia stay where they are - at Torgau and Leipzig respectively - and glare at each other.
I send the cavalry brigade that took Chemnitz on to Erfurt. A bit of a risk - I cannot see the strength of the enemy garrison there - but cutting of the supply of the French (or threatening to do that) is worth it.
I can buy a regular infantry depot btn.

Bertram
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Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:18 pm

Early July, turn 93
I forgot to mention that I send Frederic and Wedell to Stettin, to try and put the Russians in place - once again. Though they have a synchronic move order, Wedell arrives in Stettin a day ahead of Frederic - and just at the end of the turn. The fight will be next turn.
The British and Swedish clash again at Wismar - and the British are repulsed again. I need a little more oomph before trying again.
Then my cavalry brigade arrives at Erfurt. This is the battle I mentioned earlier, and I'll just cut and paste the post I made:
--
The place is Erfurt, a wooded area. The Austrians are defending it with an infantry brigade. It consists of 2399 men (and 2 horses) and is commanded by comte de Maupeau (3-0-0). (Squarian added that they were dug in to level 2) It consists of 16 elements.
They are attacked by a cavalry brigade of 2364 men (in 15 elements), commanded by Georg von Driesen (5-5-4). Von Driesen is already pretty famous on our side, in several battles his charges did tremendous damage to the enemy. He has 3 stars. His cavalry units are experienced, they have on average 4 stars (two have no stars, one has seven stars, three have 6 stars, the others are somewhere in between). There are no "hero units" though (units with absurd strengths due to a bug).
Battle consists of one round. Ranged hits give 9 hits on my side, 0 on the enemy units.
Assualt gives another 9 hits on my side and 134 on the enemy side. The enemy loses 13 infantry elements..... I can not see the remaining 3 enemy infantry elements after the battle, I suppose they are destroyed in pursuit.....
In numbers I lost 313 men, the enemy 2334.
Looking at the detailed combat report we can see that I started with 140 hearts/ 2051 cohesion, and ended with 124 / 1809. I inflicted 56/316 and suffered 14/154.
The enemy started with 142/1272 and ended with 45 /501. (inflicted and suffered is of course the reverse from mine).

The result is that I my cavalry charged a (dug in) infantry force of equal size, smashed their line, routed them and destroyed them, with minimal losses to themself. And this in wooded terrain and near a town.


I also get 5 morale.
Meanwhile the French take Paderborn - it was not fortified. The other towns - Munster and Olmutz - are holding.
Typhus strikes in England - nothing I need to worry about.

After the turn Squarian and I discuss the problems with the way my cavalry can destroy his infantry - and get his supply line wrecked. We decide to put the game on hold for now, and wait for a reaction from Pocus or another Philippe :) .

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squarian
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Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:39 pm

Bertram wrote:I can not see the remaining 3 enemy infantry elements after the battle, I suppose they are destroyed in pursuit.....


Indeed they were - and M. le Comte de Maupeau was killed in the action! So it was a massacre, Maupeau's Last Stand.

Bertram
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Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:23 am

It seems the Philippes are on a (much earned) holiday. No answers are forthcoming, and we are missing our daily fix of war.
So we have decided to roll back the turn. I'll send my cavalry somewhere else, and we start a houserule, that states that cavalry on it own may not attack infantry (unless it has a large majority).

So I run the turn again:

Early July, turn 93 (bis)
I forgot to mention that I send Frederic and Wedell to Stettin, to try and put the Russians in place - once again. Though they have a synchronic move order, Wedell arrives in Stettin a day ahead of Frederic - and immediatly runs away. I cancel the move order. The fight will be next turn.
The British and Swedish clash again at Wismar - and the British are repulsed again. I need a little more oomph before trying again.

My cavalry moves to the region south of Torgau, trying to cut off the Austrian army.

Meanwhile the French take Paderborn - it was not fortified. This time my stallward defenders manage to destroy two French infantry elements - but it does not change the outcome.The other towns - Munster and Olmutz - are holding.

Typhus strikes my largest army. These are the British in Alfeld. Their power goes from 3200 to 700, I lose 5000 men. This is a change I could do without.

Bertram
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Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:11 am

Late July, turn 94
Where Squarian got bitten by the way the game handles combat last turn, I got hit this time. You will remember that I had several brigades of elite troops. Those guys are so elite that they won't fight alongside normal soldiers. They are even so elite that they refuse to merge their element with others (this is a game design issue - you can't merge elements, and you can't disband them due to the high costs involved). So you end up with elite elements of 17 men, regiments of 34-68 men, and brigades of 128-264 men.
For the last year I played hide and seek with those men, running when the enemy came close. Because when those elite soldiers engage normal soldiers - with elements up to strength - they lose big time.
This time my luck ran out. Squarian send a force to Berlin, to harass my men there. Not a big problem, just two brigades consisting of 6200 men. I had also 6100 men in Berlin - 2 brigades and the Berlin garrison. Unfortunately those two brigades were the elite brigades I was hiding from Squarian, consisting of only 710 elite soldiers (in 20 elements). The elite brigades engaged the enemy, the garrison, being locked, did not. The result was a loss of 710 men on my side (those two elite brigades, 20 elements), and a loss of 430 men on the Austrian side.
I also lost 11 NM, and Squarian won that much....
By losing those 710 men my morale advantage of 120 - 80 went to an advantage of 109 - 91. Combat modifiers 110%-90% to 100%-100%. I might not have lost the game with this battle, but it sure evened up the score. This battle outside Berlin, and the loss of those 710 men, is thus by far the most important battle of this war. Forget the battle at Kassel, with each side having 75.000 men. Forget the battles near Torgau, where we had 125.000 Austrians against 75.000 Prussians and where the Austrians lost 25.000 men. Never mmind the fact that the Austrians lost 70.000 men more then the Prussians thus far.
Nothing comes near the effect of this battle.
This means the game is won or lost by how good you can hide your depleted elite units from the enemy, and how fast your elite soldiers can run from their regular counterparts.
Last week I have been evaluating whether to cntinue or not. I have concluded that this game of hide and seek with my elite soldiers isn't what I am looking for.

We might proceed when this matter is resolved. I understand that there is a new game that takes the resources though, and this is a fairly deep problem - in that it isn't just a database matter, but a matter that involves the basic properties of the units and the way the engine hand;es elements. So it might be some time - or never at all.

Baris
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Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:56 am

Well don't lose hope :)

It is the best game that achieves maintaining big number of troops and planning their cohesion and strenght in a very realistic manner.

I practiced WIA for the previous weeks and depleted elements were not so much of a problem where there was smaller scale of battles and units. But after some time when armies reach 10 000 men it was taking time to replenish elements in depots.

In ROP, stronger units can have 5 or 6 elements. After some merging, armies can reach big numbers and can be hard to replenish elements where they need to be mobile.(more important for Prussia side) So a new parameter or concept of merging elements must be necessary only for ROP. I think it will be adressed soon.

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squarian
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Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:43 pm

It pains me to have to say this about a game I really looked forward to, on a topic I really love, but ROP isn't ready for prime time.

To my knowledge, this AAR represents the longest and most detailed public trial ROP has received since it's release, by two players who have some considerable experience of the AGE engine and some considerable knowledge about, and love for, the 7YW period. Therefore, the fact that both players have finished with a high level of dissatisfaction with the game is a grave verdict against it.

Many of the most serious problems have been discussed in this AAR, but Bertram's last post identifies a crucial one:

  • 1) damaged elements can't be merged so they are a battlefield liability
  • 2) the NM calculation after battle often seems irrational, with instances of huge swings as the result of relatively small engagements.
  • 3) when 1 and 2 combine, the results are devastating.


Damaged elements and NM is a glaring issue, but it's not the only one - siege still seems too random, Russian supply still inadequate, Bav/Wur/Pal can't rebuild their infantry, cavalry is too strong vs infantry.

In general, I'm forced to conclude that ROP was released in a half-finished state, with too many remaining design problems to really be playable.

That would not necessarily be a difficulty, given AGEOD's marvelous reputation for continuing to improve their games. For some time, I've expressed optimism in this forum that ROP would eventually get the same treatment and a fine conception would be polished into an excellent working model.

A busy production schedule and relatively low sales for ROP might cast some doubt on that belief, but I remain optimistic. Nevertheless, as it stands I reluctantly conclude that ROP has too many problems to provide a satisfying game experience.

Many thanks to Bertram, always a first-rate opponent and gentleman.

hattrick
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Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:13 pm

What if they allowed one unit to disband without penalty every turn?

Baris
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Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:20 pm

In previous weeks I was playing WIA ..and as the number of elements and units (size of armies)smaller, it was lesser a problem for merging elements. And my observation of losing NM in battles were very logical.

I once assault Loisborogh Fortress form the sea transports, out of 3500 men, 2800 were killed including commander(after 2 battles) losing me 13 NM total and it was very reasonable.

In the infantry-cavalry thread I posted a picture about battle in ROP about Gessler coloum engaging Piccolini, losing me 5 NM after battle, by only losing 505 men while Piccolini losing 2461 men. NM loss calculations after battles needs some work, maybe ROP is the first game we can have have huge armies, NM losses arent scaled well.

I think the problem is about the scale of the war and number of elements. Because it is bigger-scale game that you can form very big armies . Some stronger infantry units have 6-7 elements. So when they are depleted it will make more casualties for armies as said. Maybe it needs more parameters or different approach from WİA or ACW(Didnt play much)about elements. Merging elements is necessary.

Some unique touches needed for ROP, as it is the best war game about the realism about warfare and history. Don't lose hope :)

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squarian
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Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:26 pm

hattrick wrote:What if they allowed one unit to disband without penalty every turn?


With the manpower returned to the conscript pool, as per battlefield losses?

That would be a major step forward, yep. :)

Even so, I think the formula for NM changes from battle losses needs a look - I've had single cossack units caught and destroyed, which is par for the course and nothing to be surprised by - except that it's cost me a NM point! (And this was after cossacks were changed to raiders, btw). Losing a cossack rgt really shouldn't have that kind of effect.

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squarian
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Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:39 pm

Baris wrote:Some unique touches needed for ROP, as it is the best war game about the realism about warfare and history. Don't lose hope :)


My sentiments precisely! :thumbsup:

Some work required, but in conception it's probably the best (certainly the most ambitious) AGEOD has produced since AACW. I hope and trust such an attractive and interesting game will get the help it needs to be playable.

In fact, boiled down to bare bones, what we're talking about here is just one really thorough patch. Some problems (Bav/Wur not able to build inf rgts from force pool, PAL not having inf & gren depot bns to generate replacements) are simple data base fixes. Others, like Russian supply, NM oddities, and cavalry cleaving through prepared infantry like Panzer Mk IVs, probably need some coding work.

But I don't want to leave the wrong impression - this isn't a hopelessly flawed game. It just simply has too many problems at present, so that the frustration level eventually overwhelms the "illusion of authenticity" most strategy/wargamers are looking for.

p.s. Add this issue to the list of things needing a fix.

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Charles
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Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:01 pm

I am not a AGOED veteran, but ROP does a very good job of capturing the feel of 18th century warfare.

I also see the need for certain fixes with replacements/unit merging. You quickly wind up with many depleted units. Perhaps one game solution could be to allow disbanding with no/little cost and for the points to be returned to the construction pool. It is very easy to build units in game. This way, you could disband depleted units in the fall and rebuild them as new units over the winter.

kosmoface
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Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:59 pm

why is there a penalty on disbanding units in the first place?

Lord Irvine
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Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:39 pm

I don't understand why the need for a NM hit for disbanding units, especially if the remaining elements are sent to the force pool. Maybe put in a rule that units under siege or out of supply cannot be disbanded or still take a NM hit.

I bought ROP back in July. I had been watching this forum to see how the patching was going but jumped in when there was a 50% off offer back then. I have tried some practice games playing as Austria (I'm saving Prussia for when I think the game is ready) and have really enjoyed the look and feel of the game, but until some of the major issues are fixed (and I'm confident they will be fixed) I'm keeping myself busy with other things. For me the most important item is the supply of the Russians. Its dispiriting to see your army of Ivans finally get through Poland and then starve over the winter. I know it should be a challenge to supply the Russians as this is a historic fact, but it shouldn't be impossible for the human player :bonk: .

I want this to be a contructive post so I will say again I really like this game and am looking forward to playing it to its full potential soon :) . Also I've enjoyed reading this AAR a lot and I'm sad to see it stop. Well done Bertram and Squarian :thumbsup: .

tagwyn
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AAR - Rop!!

Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:42 pm

Bert/Squarian: Thanks. I bought the game and have been patching it as available. Hope for some improvemt over what you have experienced before I attempt to play. t :confused:

Baris
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Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:12 pm

To Bertram and Squarian , I also give my regards to them about this AAR. I hope they will play again with the new patch. , their main worries as mine are.

-Artilery replacements (about field artilery(fort batteries) and their movement speed)
-powerful cavalry against infantry
-elements can not be merged or disband(not practical)
-we can not build some nations troops.
-We only build infantry replacement depots .Not practical to build other units.
-some events
-Russian supply is not enough even with the supply ships with the latest beta.
-NM isnt scaled well about combat losses.

and so on, I also hope this game will be perfect, it is already good but some touches needed of course..

kosmoface
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Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:04 am

It might be better to make a new thread in the "help to improve ROP" section than to discuss it here.

I guess the AGEOD Team is in crunch time because of the new game RUS, which will be published in November, but it would be nice if they knew about these issues so that we get a patch in the forseeable future.

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hgilmer
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This kind of saddens me....

Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:55 pm

I hope they are able to patch this to make it a better offering. I bought this based on the Demo and loved the Demo. After playing through one campaign as the Austrians on the easiest level, I decided it wasn't exactly what I was hoping for.

Then this AAR popped up and I watched it closely to see if I just did not know how to play it and that was where my satisfaction would come from. But, the two AAR opponents were having the same type of disappointments I had (only they are more knowledgeable about these wargames and could express their views better).

To put as an example - I have the old wargame War In Russia. Obviously not the same era or same war. It is an old wargame but I replay it all the time. RoP, I don't see replaying anytime soon unless some changes make it more playable.

Baris
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Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:01 am

hgilmer wrote:Then this AAR popped up and I watched it closely to see if I just did not know how to play it and that was where my satisfaction would come from. But, the two AAR opponents were having the same type of disappointments I had (only they are more knowledgeable about these wargames and could express their views better).

.


Should be correct..
It is already stable game but some parts needs some work and can be improved. But the gamer should identify what parts needs work by testing and uploading save game.
It is already done but Rise of Prussia unfortunately lacking some attention...
lacking attention is not mainly from developers also can be from players. There is some other AAR in the AAR forum, maybe it needs more attention from players.
Apart from that I really want Bertram and Squarian to start again with their new AAR when problems solved with new patch.

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Narwhal
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Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:05 pm

Another problem (for me at least) is on how to regenerate hits on elements. Apparentely, I might be wrong but really the manual is confusing, there is an local hidden ressource "(local) replacement chits" in region which is the "capacity" to regenerate lost hits. Only since it is secret, one don't know where to garrison the units to regenerate them.

Conclusion : I want my worned-out units do a "Grand Trek" around Prussia, stopping 1 month here, 2 months there, and at the end of the Grand Trek they are regenerated, and this much faster than the unit that stayed in - say - Praag or even Berlin with a huge stockpile of supplies.

As a side note, the whole concept of "replacement chits" are not mentionned in the French manual, so people reading it might be left to wonder why their units are not getting "repared" (compare French manual P.59 to English manual P.64 - a lot of IMPORTANT information about "replacement chits" dissappear).

Also, I have no idea what "Depot Btns units" - which I can create, do. Experimentaly, I believe they regenerate the "local replacement chits", but it is written nowhere. I believe people are expected to know this because it works the same way in AACW (does it?), but as I don't own AACW, I had no way to know this.

Bertram
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Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:26 pm

A last post about this war....

Pocus and friends have released a new (1.03 beta 7) patch, in which the ability of cavalry to destroy infantry should be toned down a bit. The Russians should get more food, and NM gain and loss should be a bit less when elements got destroyed.
I don't think the ability to disband units without NM penalty (in own territory) is already implemented.
None the less, we decided to give it a try. As the changes would alter the game we decided to restart, and not finish this war.
So the AAR stops here. A new AAR will be started shortly, now in the proper AAR section. You are invited to join us there :) .

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