mjw
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Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:01 pm

Oh I'm not worried....Between AACW and BOAII, I am a big fan and trust you 100%...just pointing out a flaw that some games fall into.

Is it ready yet? ;)

orca
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Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:45 am

I like the idea of the gardes Francaise, but keep in mind that Ferdinand did campaign on the west bank

I agree completely that the objectives ought to reflect cities whose loss would really hurt the owner and those whose capture or retention was a major goal of the government.

That said I wonder about (say) Minden and Halberstadt. Were these really so critical? Muenster was a bigger city and one that served as a base of operations several times. Most of the others represent the Prussian western holdings, so should definitely be minor objectives.

Should there be an objective in southern Bohemia? IIRC Frederick occupied palces like Budweiss in 1744. Bamberg as an objective that protects Prussia's position in Saxony from advances by the French?

Konigsberg should be a strategic city and a primary objective for the Russians, of course.

As to Sweden being a minor - was it's army really that much smaller than the British army in Germany?

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Sol Invictus
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Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:04 am

I think most would consider the Swedish commitment and effort on the continent to be minor. Certainly less than that of the British/Hanoverans. I don't think Minden or Halberstadt were all that critical but I do think they should rank as Strategic Cities. I am sure that I left several important objectives in the west out of my initial list.
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Florent
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Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:25 am

Königsberg is of course the first objective for the Russians preventing them to go back to Grodno or other places in Russia.
Sol Invictus did a typo with Konigsburg but he included this city in the list.
Depending the area, it is likely that 2 objectives too close will be in the same area even with the game being more operationnal than strategic.
The Swedes had between 15000 and 20000 at most but they were not often used in campaign because of lack of supply, illness.
Fred doubted that they were at war against him.

orca
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Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:59 am

I do remember Frederick's famous comment on the Swedes. But my point was that the British (excluding Hanoverians and other Germans) army in Germany was generally about 15,000-20,000 - pretty much the same as the Swedish army.

Of course the Swedes were ineffective for a variety of reasons. All they really did was tie up a few thousand Prussian troops that had to cover the Pommeranian front. That said did it have to be that way? Couldn't the Swedes had done more. And under different circumstances couldn't the Russians have used Stralsund as a base of operations?

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Sol Invictus
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Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:17 am

Why are you excluding Hanoverian and German soldiers from your British calculations of effort? I think Sweden was stressed to even field as many soldiers as they did. They were a very poor nation and had to have outside financial support to send and maintain an army afield.
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Hohenlohe
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Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:01 am

orca wrote:I do remember Frederick's famous comment on the Swedes. But my point was that the British (excluding Hanoverians and other Germans) army in Germany was generally about 15,000-20,000 - pretty much the same as the Swedish army.

Of course the Swedes were ineffective for a variety of reasons. All they really did was tie up a few thousand Prussian troops that had to cover the Pommeranian front. That said did it have to be that way? Couldn't the Swedes had done more. And under different circumstances couldn't the Russians have used Stralsund as a base of operations?


I would say that the Swedes was not much interested in supporting an alliance in which the Russians are involved because of the results of the Nordic War some decades earlier.I think the Swedes had a great problem with their finances due to the loss of the baltic estates to the Russians.
In the Nordic War the Swedes fought a desperate struggle against the Russians.Until the swedish disaster of Poltawa the Swedish controlled great parts of Poland, the Balticum and the Ukraine but they underestimated the efforts of the Tsar Peter the Great forming a modern Russian army.The swedish King Karl aka Charles had to flee to the Ottomans after Poltawa and the loss of his main army and played no great role in the last years of the NW as the Russians gain control over the swedish Balticum and parts of the Ukraine.
I cannot judge if the Swedes would be able to field a greater army in their last foothold in main Europe besides Finlandia which they lost some decades later to the Russians. I believe the Swedes feared that Frederick would try to get Swedish Pommeria like he got Saxony, so they only screen their estate but did no main action against the Prussians even as they were able to do so.

Thats just my sixpence...

greetings

Hohenlohe :coeurs:
R.I.P. Henry D.

In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...

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rogs
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Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:42 am

Sol Invictus wrote:I
Austrian strategic Cities to hold:
3. Meissen
5. Kolin


good work on the objectives lists

but are these 2 important?

kolin was just some place on the vienna-prague highway where a battle happened

happy to be enlightened but meissen is only a minor town on SYW theatre maps that i've consulted, very close to dresden

maybe these places are significant
- theresienstadt (fort, covered access to prague from both sides of the elbe from the north)
- zittau (easy pass from lusatia into bohemia)
- pardubitz (elbe crossing from koniggratz to vienna)

jung-bunzlau / munchengratz on the iser were significant, the iser divides the elbe bend region into halves

there were entrenched camps at pirna, koenigstein and stolpen SE of dresden, jaromiersch near the later fort at josephstadt, arnau & hohenelbe on the upper elbe, bunzelwitz near schweidnitz, although fortified camps may not be so critical, it is up to us to decide where to encamp!

there's a small silesian fort not mentioned in the lists, silberberg, in the middle of the triangle glatz-neisse-schweidnitz

also pressburg and linz might be considered as key cities to hold, if the map is that big . . .


-

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Sol Invictus
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Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:22 pm

I included Kolin and Meissen because they were along the supply routes of important avenues of approach and occupied key terrain. Like you, I am unsure of the exact layout of the map and that will greatly determine which Cities are truely important. My list is simply an outline and a starting point. Once the entire map is shown we can really start to nail down the key Cities. Some of the Cities that you mentioned could certainly be included depending on how large certain regions are on the game map. I am sure that since the warzone between Prussia and Austria was relatively concentrated that several regions will contain several potential key cities.
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aryaman
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Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:35 pm

rogs wrote:good work on the objectives lists

but are these 2 important?

kolin was just some place on the vienna-prague highway where a battle happened

happy to be enlightened but meissen is only a minor town on SYW theatre maps that i've consulted, very close to dresden

maybe these places are significant
- theresienstadt (fort, covered access to prague from both sides of the elbe from the north)

-

Theresienstadt was built between 1780 and 1790, under Joseph II

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rogs
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Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:11 pm

yes, found a better map for 1756

the only strong points on that axis in 1756 would seem to be Tetschen, more of a castle converted to a palace than a fortress. when the Prussians approached the Austrian garrison of 73 men surrendered after being subjected to a few artillery shots

but further upriver at Schreckenstein, a 'grim little stronghold', a proper castle on a crag near Aussig, (the name must mean something similar to 'dreadrock' in english) 400 croats under colonel Peter MacElligot repulsed a Prussian attack and so harrassed the nearby Prussian pontoon bridge over the elbe it was withdrawn on Frederick's orders, confining the Prussians to the left bank

the battle of lobositz followed not long after

also this map doesn't show silberberg as a fortress in 1756, but does show some others in silesia, rated as fourth class, seemingly equivalent to a castle or schloss - cosel, ohlau, and glogau. breslau and neisse are the only first class fortresses, glatz and schweidnitz in the second and third rank respectively

in saxony pirna-koenigstein and colditz rate as fourth class, leipzig and dresden as fortified cities and wittenberg and torgau as second class fortresses

in bohemia-moravia, first class fortresses or fortified cities are eger, prague, koniggratz, olmutz and brunn (the southern limit of this map), and a lone fourth class strongpoint at tetschen (schreckenstein not mentioned oddly, even though the text makes it plain it was stronger than tetschen)

in brandenburg, magdeburg and cuestrin as first class fortresses or fortified cities and a fourth-class at spandau. you might quibble with the rating system on this map, spandau is a small brick fortress with artillery bastions, a moat and glacis, a far better stronghold than tetschen, but they are rated the same

all this from duffy's 'by force of arms - volume ii of the austrian army of the SYW'

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rogs
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Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:42 pm

a painting of schreckenstein in 1837

[url]http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ludwig_Richter_-_Überfahrt_über_die_Elbe_am_Schreckenstein.jpg[/url]

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Florent
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Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:28 am

all this from duffy's 'by force of arms - volume ii of the austrian army of the SYW'
Did we read the same book, Duffy says that Schweidnitz is one of the most modern fortress, this is indeed a Great Star fortress with no less than 5 !! forts. It's a first class fortress, although in game terms it is 3 since Ageod has fortress from bad to best. See fortress plan page 324 for Loudon Assault.
These fortresses are impressing but if badly garrisonned, it's possible to storm them, it has always been a possibility in Ageod games :thumbsup: and no doubt the surprises storm of these will be possible too in RoP.

orca
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Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:08 pm

I would hope that the ability to assault is very much curtailed in RoP. The major fortresses were almost impossible to carry without first making a breach, and the defenders usually surrendered when that happened. When properly garrisoned major fortresses should be immune to assault. The only sucessful assault of a major fortress that I can think of in this era is Prague in 1741. Schweidnitz doesn't count as the garrison had been removed - that's a coup de main not an assault.

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Florent
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Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:36 pm

"When properly garrisoned major fortresses should be immune to assault"
Yes when the garrison was very low it could be storm.

"Schweidnitz doesn't count as the garrison had been removed - that's a coup de main not an assault."
In 1760, there were 4000 Prussian garrison troops in Schweidnitz, mostly deserters or Autrians or saxons put by force in Prussian service or Silesian catholics. Certainly a day of Glory for Loudon !!! :D

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rogs
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Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:39 am

Florent wrote:all this from duffy's 'by force of arms - volume ii of the austrian army of the SYW'
Did we read the same book.


florent, i only received duffy's weighty volumes in the post this week (at enormous cost, from america)

such was my excitement i posted relying on the maps only, before reading both volumes thoroughly . . .

i did check out schreckenstein thoroughly tho!

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Sol Invictus
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Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:28 pm

I am about finished reading By Force of Arms and while it is certainly pricey it is worth every penny.
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Florent
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Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:26 pm

"it is certainly pricey it is worth every penny."
Yes very fascinating book about Austria, their way of warfare, as Fred said after Lobositz " they are not the same Old Austrians".
The Empire Strikes Back !!!!
I have ordered on Amazon.co.uk the book "his Britannic Majesty's Army in Germany" reedited recently. I have not much knowledge about this front although i know Rosbach or Klosterkamp.
In the meantime i have started the Stalingrad Trilogy by Glantz.

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Sol Invictus
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Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:53 pm

Yes, I definately have more respect for the Austrian Military since I have read this book. They gave the Prussians about all that they could handle. I would like to get the book on the British Army in Germany but the cost is rediculous. The cheapest I saw was a couple hundred dollars. :eek:
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Florent
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Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:01 pm

On Amazon.co.uk you have a new edition for about 83 Euros shipping included.

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