Possible Release Date

[PhilThib]

The Bohemian map is under revision, with a help of a player who actually lives there

The Austrians (and their allies) in the game are not under represented, I am sure it's going to be extremely tough for the Prussians just to 'survive'... the thing we try to portray as much as possible in the game is, as you rightly point out, the indecision of commanders in the field (which was more frequent on the coalition side)

[mjw]

The only disadvantage for the Austrians compared to the Prussians was they respected the laws of war and of the empire.

No, their main disadvantage was the overall incompetency of their leadership. The decisiveness of frederick allowed him to survive while the Austrian failed time and time again to sieze intiative both tactically and strategically.

If there is one thing AGEOD does well, it is design games without bias. Yes, Frederick will be a phenomenal leader, as he was in real life. I doubt the Austrians could have stood against Prussia, France, Russia and Sweden for 7 years.

Relax, I am sure Austria will be given its due.

[rogs]

No, Austria stood against France, Bavaria and Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession, in much worse conditions and against similar odds to Prussia in the SYW, and survived in excellent shape, and able to undertake an aggressive program of reform.

As for Austrian leadership, Daun, supposedly 'incompetent', defeated Frederick personally in two battles (Kolin and Hochkirch), revolutionised warfare with his concentric, multi-axis assault first employed at Hochkirch (and immitated by the Prussians), and strategically defeated Frederick, apparently a genius, in 6 years of war. Frederick only beat Daun once, at Torgau, and only after Daun had left the field wounded, after nightfall. I think Daun wins on points when you compare them.

Everyone talks about Frederick's oblique approach, but Daun's multi-axis concentric operations were more sophisticated and prefigured Napoleonic warfare more clearly. Not unrelated, the Theresian artillery was also the model for artillery throughout Europe to the mid-19th Century.

The Austrian loss at Leuthen was immediately remedied by the Queen-Empress by sacking Charles of Lorraine, showing decisiveness and realism on the part of the high command. Austrian diplomacy, grand strategy and logistics under Kaunitz were masterful.

Frederick himself said the war was lost but for the death of the Russian empress in 1762. You could add an error by Kaunitz at this time, when he forced through cuts to the Austrian military that impeded Austrian operations at a critical stage.

You might argue that the Austrians officer corps as a whole was less professional than the Prussian and subject to divisions not faced by the Prussians, due to the presence of the Prussian king in field. Austrian command structures and cavalry doctrines did not support Daun's new grand tactics as well as they might; but there is no denying Daun aimed at the destruction of the enemy, as achieved at Maxen, another concentric operation.

You could say that the Austrian infantry were slightly outclassed by Prussian infantry in the early years of the war, but it is easy to point to numerous cases where Austrian infantry prevailed over Prussian and undertook aggressive and successful operations on their own initiative. Frederick himself said at Lobositz 'these are not the same old Austrians'.

It is important not to be misled by impressions of the Austrian military that arose in the Napoleonic wars and the later 19th Century. The Theresian state was a high point of Austrian military and fiscal efficiency and trans-national popular support. Read Duffy and the diaries of the Netherlander Prince de Ligne, among others, for confirmation.

[Beren]

Good points ROgs, but it is obvius that you forget a very important point, population and economy. Austria was far more powerful than the tiny Prussia, the comparison is not possible and ridicoulus.

[Beren]

Battle of Kolin: 32000 prussians attacking 50-60000 austrians in good defending positions.... well, Frederick was a good general, but you can´t see miracles all days...

Battle of Hochkirch: 30,000-36,000 Prussians against 80,000 Austrians.... well Rogs... you must me joking

[Carnium]

Please don't turn this into forum wars
Wait for RoP to be released and then settle this via a nice PBEM battle

[arsan]

It's interesting to see these kind of historical discussions!
(Of course always keeping a friendly an educated tone)
But they may be better in the RoP history subforum, that badly needs some action
http://www.ageod-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=257
Than in a thread about game release date, don't you think??

Cheers!

[rogs]

Austria wasn't organised for war the same way Prussia was; Prussia's militarisation and militarism was the reason France and Russia were willing to ally with Austria. Prussia was a clear and present danger to non-militarist powers.

And anyway, nothing wrong with a little Austria-boosting

Usually its the other way around

[rogs]

Battle of Kolin: 32000 prussians attacking 50-60000 austrians in good defending positions.... well, Frederick was a good general, but you can´t see miracles all days...

Battle of Hochkirch: 30,000-36,000 Prussians against 80,000 Austrians.... well Rogs... you must me joking

Daun was there firstest with the mostest . . . case dismissed

[Sol Invictus]

Daun was there firstest with the mostest . . . case dismissed

True, but Daun sometimes had a case of the slows.

[aryaman]

Battle of Kolin: 32000 prussians attacking 50-60000 austrians in good defending positions.... well, Frederick was a good general, but you can´t see miracles all days...

Battle of Hochkirch: 30,000-36,000 Prussians against 80,000 Austrians.... well Rogs... you must me joking

A good general doesn´t attack in a situation like Kolin, or allowed himself to be surprised by such a superior force like at Hochkirch

[Beren]

Caesar, Alexander, Hannibal, Napoleon, Davout and several others must be bad generals then

[aryaman]

Caesar, Alexander, Hannibal, Napoleon, Davout and several others must be bad generals then

Care to point examples similar to the stupidity of Hochkirch?

[mjw]

Not sure that Austria really won the war of austrian succession. They maintained the pragmatic sanction but lost Silesia to the prussians in return.

I never claimed the Austrians or Daun were incompetent, just that time and time again, Daun lost the opportunity to destroy a prussian army by acting too slowly. Frederick consistently maintained the initiative, in part, by attacking when the odds said he would lose. Sometimes it worked (leuthen) and sometimes it didn't. He had little choice.

Also, I don't think the russians fought against austria in the was of succession like they did against prussia...lots of beef in that army. Austria fought prussia at twoi seperate points during the succession war and lost both timesj the second at hohenfriesberg (sorry for spelling)a great prussina victory. The main antagonists were france in the west and spain in italy ( for which austria could rely on the piedmont army).

Please don't think I am denigrating austria, its just that many people want to rewrite history and take away what frederick was able to do.

My original point is that austria will be well represented but no way any austrian general gets a strategic rating close to fred.

[mjw]

Care to point examples similar to the stupidity of Hochkirch?

Napoleon at borodino
Robert E. Lee at gettysburg
Grant at shiloh (a victory but dearly won and he was "suprised")

Many great generals make tactical errors out of desperation. Frederick in the 7 year war was no different

[aryaman]

Napoleon at borodino
Robert E. Lee at gettysburg
Grant at shiloh (a victory but dearly won and he was "suprised")

Many great generals make tactical errors out of desperation. Frederick in the 7 year war was no different

Sorry, but I don´t see there the slightlest ressemblance to Hochkirch,

[arsan]

They all feature great generals (ones greater than others... ) committing blunder (ones bigger than others...)

[mjw]

Well, you said great generals don't attack in situations like kolin and don't get suprised...then you asked for examples. So, I gave you examples of great generals who were suprised or attacked in situations where they were at great disadvantage of their own making.(Lee at gettysburg and napoleon at borodino...which, while a victory, left napoleon's army depleted and he failed to pursue allowing the russians to reconstitute)

As for hotchkirk, general US grant was suprised at shiloh by a superior force...so my illustration was applicable to your question.

George washington was a great general...an average tactician but an excellent strategist who understood the necessity of initiative and overall strategy regardless of tactical outcomes.
just because frederick made mistakes doesn't mean he is not a great general.

[aryaman]

But those similarities are superficial, Gettysburg was a meeting engagement in which Lee was blind about the real strength of the enemy, and Borodino was much more balanced than Kolin. At Shiloh Grant was not in command the first day, but in any case the CSA army marched a long way to surprise the Union army, while at Horchkirch both armies were in front of each other for some days, what makes the surprise the more silly.
Sure, great leaders make mistakes, but great mistakes don´t make great leaders.

[Beren]

Battles won by Frederick: Mollwitz Chotusitz Hohenfriedberg Hennersdorf Lobositz Prague Rossbach Leuthen Liegnitz Torgau Burkersdorf

Battles lost by Frederick: Kolin Hochkirch Kunersdorf

Zorndorf (stalemate)

Well, during Frederick´s live, the positive results are pretty obvious and consolidating the tiny Prussia as a major power in central Europe ... if Napoleon saw the Prussian king as the greatest tactical genius of all time, why we, the mortals, are we discussing these kind of things?

[gpepper]

Maybe we should bring this topic, mighty generals, to another thread because we are far away from it !

--> Release date !

[aryaman]

Battles won by Frederick: Mollwitz Chotusitz Hohenfriedberg Hennersdorf Lobositz Prague Rossbach Leuthen Liegnitz Torgau Burkersdorf

Battles lost by Frederick: Kolin Hochkirch Kunersdorf

Zorndorf (stalemate)

Well, during Frederick´s live, the positive results are pretty obvious and consolidating the tiny Prussia as a major power in central Europe ... if Napoleon saw the Prussian king as the greatest tactical genius of all time, why we, the mortals, are we discussing these kind of things?

The balance was not that rossy. Frederick was not present at some of the battles to see the end of it, because he had the habit of quitting the battlefield when things got wrong, if he was just a general and not the king he would have been facing a martial court.
Others were just bloodbaths, in which frontal assults succeededjust because of the superior Prussian training and discipline.
IMO Frederick was a mediocre commander, his army had a quality edge he ruthlessly exploited, but he is certainly overrated. But we have already discussed this in another thread, when the game is out we will have plenty of time to discuss the rating of generals in the game, I am sure we will have battles as fierce as on the game itself

[mjw]

My analogies to gettysburg, borodino and shiloh only serve to demonstrate that great generals are sometimes suprised or otherwise make tactical decisions that place their armies at a tactical or strategic disadvantage. It was grants decision to move his army to shiloh in coordination with Buell's army of ohio. He was, in turn, suprised by AS Johnston's reinforced army and almost driven into the river. (Actually, it was Sherman's division that was suprised...another great general).

Frederick's defeats were usually the result of being greatly outnumbered...as were his victories. I doubt any of his contemporaries could have done as well with what he had.

Now, at the request of mods...how any updates on release now that there has been a review

[Generalisimo]

how any updates on release now that there has been a review

Well, you DO know that it will be released on Q1... so, every new day that passes away, we are more near the release date...

[Nial]

Anything new on a release date?

[dooya]

Anything new on a release date?

Yes, finally it is fixed:

There will definitely be a release date!

[Pocus]

before Spring to be more precise.

[Lannes]

Bientôt alors

[Pocus]

oui, tu peux compter en semaines on va dire...