Merchant Ship Upgrades

[powloon1]

I have just received the tech that gives me Steam commerce ships.

I was hoping that I could upgrade my sale commerce units to the new type but after keeping a unit of sail merchant ships in my level 20 naval base on passive mode there is no sign of the unit upgrading. Is this correct? (I have 10+ merchant replacements)

I have tried looking in the model and unit files for enlightenment but am slightly more confused. The unit file under TechAutoUpg shows that the sail ships upgrade to the small steamer type whilst the model (element) file under the same heading shows that the commerce sail elements upgrade to commerce clipper elements and commerce clipper elements do not upgrade to commerce steamer. The 2 files seem to contradict each other (or more likely I just don't understand it properly) can anyone explain how it is supposed to work?

[Jim-NC]

Naval units do not auto upgrade. If they lose an element, they will replace with the new type, so if your wooden frigate squadron loses 1, and you have researched ironclads, you will get an ironclad ship in it's place. (I am not sure about merchant ships and their exact upgrade tree).

[Kensai]

You can always disband them, taking a hit in Prestige and NM. But for merchants ships it won't be too much.

[Moriety]

The Russian _Lit9 Light Cavalry is never upgraded to the _Lit10 model. possibly as it points to a Cossack unit. I think there are many broken links in the upgrade paths, BUT ! You should not be able to upgrade a sailing vessel into an Iron warship. They have a service life and get scrapped. This has to be right. I have recently scrapped all my Russian wooden warships. I don't like that you lose points though, after all, the ship has simply completed it's service, is now obsolete and after reserve service gets scrapped.

[Random]

You should not be able to upgrade a sailing vessel into an Iron warship. They have a service life and get scrapped. This has to be right. I have recently scrapped all my Russian wooden warships. I don't like that you lose points though, after all, the ship has simply completed it's service, is now obsolete and after reserve service gets scrapped.

I agree. Following the technological development of warships in the PON era, automatic upgrade should not be the way to go. Military units can receive new weapons, absorb new doctrines and re-invent themselves after significant reorganizations but navies did not (and do not today) have that luxury. The shelf life of a major warship during this period was very short relative to today.

Warships represent huge investments in money and resources and some might achieve fame or become national icons where scrapping them has an effect on the national psyche. We saw this recently when the USN decommissioned USS Enterprise. So warships become obsolete and go to the breakers in PON as in reality. Taxpayers are right to be angry as the money expended in times of rapid obsolescence and technical change is difficult for the public to understand. The transition from wood to steel, sail to steam was expensive and fleets underwent several generations of warships, all of which became obsolete and were destined for scrapping. Army regiments can reinvent themselves as new technology gets adapted, navies did not and do not have that ability. Taxpayers did not like seeing 10-15 year old battleships go to the breakers and the constant demands by all imperial powers for money so that their fleets did not descend into irrelevance did cause dissent in many nations. It might suck in the game but it was worse for the politicians of the day and PON reflects that pretty well IMHO.

Transiting the technological gap between the wooden sailing battleship and the all-big gunned dreadnought in PON and across just 55-years is cheaper and easier than it was for the real world navies of the age. The game actually lets us off lightly in that we need not pursue technological dead-ends (like central-battery ships, rams or dynamite guns) as what happened in the actual era and obsolete ships retain some utility longer.

[Moriety]

I agree. Following the technological development of warships in the PON era, automatic upgrade should not be the way to go. Military units can receive new weapons, absorb new doctrines and re-invent themselves after significant reorganizations but navies did not (and do not today) have that luxury. The shelf life of a major warship during this period was very short relative to today.

Warships represent huge investments in money and resources and some might achieve fame or become national icons where scrapping them has an effect on the national psyche. We saw this recently when the USN decommissioned USS Enterprise. So warships become obsolete and go to the breakers in PON as in reality. Taxpayers are right to be angry as the money expended in times of rapid obsolescence and technical change is difficult for the public to understand. The transition from wood to steel, sail to steam was expensive and fleets underwent several generations of warships, all of which became obsolete and were destined for scrapping. Army regiments can reinvent themselves as new technology gets adapted, navies did not and do not have that ability. Taxpayers did not like seeing 10-15 year old battleships go to the breakers and the constant demands by all imperial powers for money so that their fleets did not descend into irrelevance did cause dissent in many nations. It might suck in the game but it was worse for the politicians of the day and PON reflects that pretty well IMHO.

Transiting the technological gap between the wooden sailing battleship and the all-big gunned dreadnought in PON and across just 55-years is cheaper and easier than it was for the real world navies of the age. The game actually lets us off lightly in that we need not pursue technological dead-ends (like central-battery ships, rams or dynamite guns) as what happened in the actual era and obsolete ships retain some utility longer.

I didn't know the USS Enterprise was recently still in service, as a boy in the UK I loved this huge ship, even though she belonged to your Navy, not mine.

Here in the UK the media seems obsessed with HMS Hood even though she was very obsolete by the start of WWII. I recently saw an ad for an hour-long programme on why she sunk. (She lost a fight with a modern Battleship because she was an out-of-date Battlecruiser from the 1920's, It's simple). No matter how she was sunk, the outcome was inevitable.

Yes, it costs just 300 steel for a pre-Dreadnought, I think Ageod have let us off very lightly. The Royal Navy ranked fleets in importance with the Home Fleet the Number 1, and to whom the newest ships went, with the exception of the various Fleet Flagships. If not mistaken the oldest warships served with the South American and Far East Squadrons before being placed in reserve after 20-30-odd years of service?

[olddron]

I didn't know the USS Enterprise was recently still in service, as a boy in the UK I loved this huge ship, even though she belonged to your Navy, not mine.

Here in the UK the media seems obsessed with HMS Hood even though she was very obsolete by the start of WWII. I recently saw an ad for an hour-long programme on why she sunk. (She lost a fight with a modern Battleship because she was an out-of-date Battlecruiser from the 1920's, It's simple). No matter how she was sunk, the outcome was inevitable.

Yes, it costs just 300 steel for a pre-Dreadnought, I think Ageod have let us off very lightly. The Royal Navy ranked fleets in importance with the Home Fleet the Number 1, and to whom the newest ships went, with the exception of the various Fleet Flagships. If not mistaken the oldest warships served with the South American and Far East Squadrons before being placed in reserve after 20-30-odd years of service?

Dreadnought's full ammo load was worth 10% of the price of that entire dreadnought. Battleships are very costly to run indeed.

[Wilsh8517]

Sorry to jump in but how do you know if your units have upgraded ??

[czert2]

Sorry to jump in but how do you know if your units have upgraded ??

You will simply see unit "name" was trained. Thats all. It is on player to rember if that trained units is newly purchased one or upgaded land unit.
No upgade to naval units.
And just interesing as i didnt reached air era - are planes upgraded too ? Or they have only one generation ?

[Kensai]

Normally all technical equipment should be scrapped before "liberating a slot" in the force pool for its upgrade. Exceptions to this are land units (artillery gets upgraded). Not sure about tanks and armored cars later.

[Random]

I didn't know the USS Enterprise was recently still in service, as a boy in the UK I loved this huge ship, even though she belonged to your Navy, not mine.

I'm not American but Canadian. We know all about hanging on to warships long past their "best before" dates.

Naval history of this era is something of a passion however and PON actually does a rather remarkable job of forcing the player to effectively manage the vast technological changes imposed upon the player's navy as the years roll on. A couple of good reads on the subject are Paul Kennedy's The Rise and Fall of British Naval Mastery, Arthur Marder's Anatomy of British Seapower 1880-1905 and Conway's Steam, Steel and Shellfire: The Steam Warship 1815-1905. Some of the technology timelines might not match the actual events but overall the effect produces navies that are generally representative of the time frame rather than absolutely historically accurate.

[Moriety]

I'm not American but Canadian. We know all about hanging on to warships long past their "best before" dates.

Naval history of this era is something of a passion however and PON actually does a rather remarkable job of forcing the player to effectively manage the vast technological changes imposed upon the player's navy as the years roll on. A couple of good reads on the subject are Paul Kennedy's The Rise and Fall of British Naval Mastery, Arthur Marder's Anatomy of British Seapower 1880-1905 and Conway's Steam, Steel and Shellfire: The Steam Warship 1815-1905. Some of the technology timelines might not match the actual events but overall the effect produces navies that are generally representative of the time frame rather than absolutely historically accurate.

I think the Royal Navy is now down to just 15 Destroyers and Frigates, but at least the new 'Daring' Class Destroyers seem very capable. These days I'm worried about the Navies existence, not the age of them.

[Sir Garnet]

Merchantmen are not like warships whose obsolescence can be fatal. They are sold from owner to owner until scrapping or sinking for the insurance money is their most attractive use. Sail vessels could have a longer service like than steamships if maintained, and sailing merchantmen continued in service through the course of our game where they remained relatively useful.

[Albert Herring]

One slight glitch I noticed with my rashly acquired squadron of gunboats for the river Senegal - when I acquired the ironclad technology that introduces a second generation of gunboats, the unit counter graphic changed, even though the elements of the unit remain the old type.

A propos, does the river Niger become navigable up to its higher reaches when you've explored both banks of it, as you can build ports up at the top end?

[Kensai]

This is normal, Albert.

As for the rivers, if they are large enough (you can mouse over a riverine region on them) yes, they are navigable. But indeed you need to explore them.

[Albert Herring]

This is normal, Albert.

Mine not to reason why, but it seems to me that using the graphic for the predominant element would make more sense.

As for the rivers, if they are large enough (you can mouse over a riverine region on them) yes, they are navigable. But indeed you need to explore them.

Right. But (assuming the black bits of river upstream from Niger Estuary are indeed navigable waters) they do not seem to be explorable by an exploration party in the same way as land regions, even with both banks explored - what's the secret? (It seems that land units can use riverine movement on them, but I cannot sail my gunboats upstream)

[nemethand]

Yes, it costs just 300 steel for a pre-Dreadnought, I think Ageod have let us off very lightly. The Royal Navy ranked fleets in importance with the Home Fleet the Number 1, and to whom the newest ships went, with the exception of the various Fleet Flagships. If not mistaken the oldest warships served with the South American and Far East Squadrons before being placed in reserve after 20-30-odd years of service?

OOC - Is it a fact? Then the mass of overproduced steel is liekly to be used in our MP sometime in the future.

[Kensai]

Yes, for some reason elements that simply upgrade in the same category (type) keep the old icon.

Right. But (assuming the black bits of river upstream from Niger Estuary are indeed navigable waters) they do not seem to be explorable by an exploration party in the same way as land regions, even with both banks explored - what's the secret? (It seems that land units can use riverine movement on them, but I cannot sail my gunboats upstream)

I think the exploration or geographical expedition card is played in the region adjacent to the river to discover, not on the river itself.