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willgamer
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Upgrade vs Extension

Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:30 pm

What if the difference between an upgrade and an extension as it applies to harbors, forts and naval bases?

montgomeryjlion
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Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:42 pm

Upgrade takes it to next higher level
(Anchorage to Coaling Station CS to Harbor, Harbor to Naval Base)
Extension makes it bigger (Size 1 to Size 2)

Pierre
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Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:00 pm

And what are the use of "charbonnages" ?

montgomeryjlion
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Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:45 pm

If I have this correctly:
Anchorages just provide safe shelter (No sea damage)
Coaling Stations (Charbonnages en Francais) also provide resupply
Harbors can repair ships as well.
Naval Stations also help build ships.

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Aragos
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Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:08 pm

I'd add that Harbors above Level 2 and Naval Bases also allow for ships to gain replacements (allowing for new ships to be added to understrength counters)

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willgamer
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Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:16 pm

Thanks guys, this subject just got much clearer. :)

Followup- afaik, the higher the naval base level the faster it builds ships (and does other things faster as well?).

Is there some corresponding advantage to a higher level fort?

I ask because I improved the Washington fort to both level 2 and industrial. However, troops there are only entrenched to level 2; while troops, at say Norfolk, in a pre-industrial, level 1 fort are entrenced to level 4. :confused:

montgomeryjlion
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Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:54 pm

Not sure what the algorithm is, but there certainly is an advantage to bigger ports, etc. The upgrade to Naval Base especially is very pricy.

Forts and Entrenchments are two different things.
Entrenchments are digging holes in the ground and hiding in them.
Forts are hiding behind walls.
I'll take the fort.
If you're in the area, you're not necessarily in the fort, which means you entrench.
If you enter the fort, you get a big defensive advantage, especially if you build some Fortress Artillery.

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willgamer
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Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:54 pm

montgomeryjlion wrote:Not sure what the algorithm is, but there certainly is an advantage to bigger ports, etc. The upgrade to Naval Base especially is very pricy.

Forts and Entrenchments are two different things.
Entrenchments are digging holes in the ground and hiding in them.
Forts are hiding behind walls.
I'll take the fort.
If you're in the area, you're not necessarily in the fort, which means you entrench.
If you enter the fort, you get a big defensive advantage, especially if you build some Fortress Artillery.


Thanks, I'm totally with you except for the situation that I'm seeing in Washington DC.

The troops are inside the fortress and show an entrenched level 2 icon. As posted above, this is a level 2, upgraded to industrial, fortress.

I probably just need more time to experiment...... :cool:

Eoghammer
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Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:32 pm

port and naval base generate supply per level...

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TheDoctorKing
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Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:57 am

willgamer wrote:Thanks guys, this subject just got much clearer. :)

Followup- afaik, the higher the naval base level the faster it builds ships (and does other things faster as well?).

Is there some corresponding advantage to a higher level fort?

I ask because I improved the Washington fort to both level 2 and industrial. However, troops there are only entrenched to level 2; while troops, at say Norfolk, in a pre-industrial, level 1 fort are entrenced to level 4. :confused:


Entrenchment and fortification are two different things. IIRC, a fort is a type of terrain which severely limits the attacker's deployment and provides protection benefits to the defender. It also greatly increases the defender's zone of control, preventing units from leaving its region into enemy occupied regions. Entrenchment is a unit characteristic that reflects how long the troops have had to prepare their positions (regardless of the terrain) and gives them protection and fire benefits if they are in defensive mode. They work together. I think that a unit in a fort that is entrenched to level 4 or 5 is a stronger defender than one that is entrenched to level 1 but the guy in the fort, even with no entrenchment levels, is still harder to dislodge than a unit in the open, even if entrenched to a reasonable level.

Also, if you are in a fort you can draw replacements more easily. Forts accumulate supply like cities and depots.

When besieging a structure, the fort must be overcome several times on the siege table (getting a result of "breach") before the attacker can attack as if it were a normal field battle. Beware, however, that even if breached, the defender still gets the benefit of his entrenchment level. And, I believe, if the fort is in a city, the city terrain also helps the defender though not as much as a fort. Forts are tough to get into without tanks and/or lots of heavy artillery.
Stewart King

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Depends on how you define victory.

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Offworlder
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Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:17 am

If the fort system reflects that present in AACW, I believe that once a unit is inside a fort, it cannot entrench at a higher level than the fort. Having said that, the very powerful fortress troops available in this game, coupled with the garrison units should make anyone's attempt to take forts quite a chore.

Also something else I noticed is the following. I'm not sure if this applies to colonial forts only but fortifications actually have an 'invisible' garrison that may be summoned to battle. Recenty I had a battle in Kuwait, in which I had only a colonial brigade together with a fort present. the Colonial brigade was outside the fort on aggressive stance. An army of brigands crossed the border and I got a message that the fort garrison was mustered. There must have been 4 fortress regiments present, which together with the colonial brigade annihilated the brigand army. It was a pleasant surprise...

Amadeus
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Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:22 am

montgomeryjlion wrote:Upgrade takes it to next higher level
(Anchorage to Coaling Station CS to Harbor, Harbor to Naval Base)
Extension makes it bigger (Size 1 to Size 2)


For me was or is confusing that the (second) picture shows an anchorage but will become a coaling station when ready. Same for the second CS upgrade picture. It shows a CS but become a harbor.

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caranorn
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Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:19 am

montgomeryjlion wrote:Not sure what the algorithm is, but there certainly is an advantage to bigger ports, etc. The upgrade to Naval Base especially is very pricy.


Can't seem to upgrade an existing port to naval base (was planning to do so with Genoa in my S-P, mostly because Genoa is easier to defend than La Spezia. Of course I could further upgrade the port at Genoa, or the existing naval base at La Spezia...

montgomeryjlion wrote:Forts and Entrenchments are two different things.
Entrenchments are digging holes in the ground and hiding in them.
Forts are hiding behind walls.
I'll take the fort.
If you're in the area, you're not necessarily in the fort, which means you entrench.
If you enter the fort, you get a big defensive advantage, especially if you build some Fortress Artillery.


And higher level forts can be very tough to assault. Just try assaulting Port Arthur in the Russo-Japanese War scenario without doing any prior preparations (no sieging, no blockading, no bombarding)...
Marc aka Caran...

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willgamer
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Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:40 pm

Offworlder wrote:If the fort system reflects that present in AACW, I believe that once a unit is inside a fort, it cannot entrench at a higher level than the fort.


That sounds about right, but it doesn't track with with the forts along the east coast of the USA.

It appears to me they start at entrenched level 4, in level 1 pre-industrial forts.

No big deal; just one of those anomalies.

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