tevans6220 wrote:Don't know if it's just the Boer War scenario or all the scenarios but the battle results do not make any sense. Just had a battle where almost 11k British soldiers suffered 100% casualties against 712 Boers. That's nearly impossible odds. Almost like the stand of the 300 at Thermoplyae. Something is way off.
One other thing I've noticed is that there is no way to buy replacements. I have the money, the officers and the conscripts but nothing else. No goods. No steel. Are replacements automatic or am I supposed to be buying them and the thing is bugged?
Narwhal wrote:I had the same 100% casualties right against the Brits myself. Like 20 000 Boers meet 150 000 Brits. No more Brits now. They all died, except 1000 that were actually captured guns.
Casualties are way off in my opinion in general, and especially in this scenario.
Also, not being able to build ANYONE is frustrating as Boers. There should be limited option to build a few replacements, or at least events.
McNaughton wrote:Actually, you have to read the stats carefully, check the victory point page and you will see how many prisoners you have captured, I bet that there are tens of thousands there. Captured weaponry is seen on map, captured soldiers are seen in events and your VP ledger. So no, those soldiers are not killed. There is nothing wrong with the causualties, the terrain and infrastructure does not breed to retreating forces, the troops were defeated, unable to quickly retreat, and were rounded up.
tevans6220 wrote:Sorry McNaughton but I believe you're wrong. Even looking at the stats carefully how can you justify 20,000 Boers defeating 150,000 British? Odds of over 7 to 1. You can say the numbers are just flavor all you want but what are those numbers actually based on? And using elements as a basis to justify a result like this doesn't make much sense either. Are all elements created equal? That's like saying a squad is equal to a division. Something is definitely off with the numbers. This same system works in all other Ageod games but in PoN battle results are problematic. They aren't believable or even in the realm of believability. Trying to explain it away with game mechanics isn't solving anything. I believe the stats need to be looked at and tweaked to reflect size difference in elements. This isn't user error or a misunderstanding of game mechanics. Something is definitely wrong.
McNaughton wrote:Well, if you would offer some proof that would be great. From what I have seen, the results are as I have said, that troops were captured, not killed as was claimed. Please provide a screenshot showing that the troops were killed.
The system is the way it is because they did test, they did actually do this in order to avoide problems that were experienced in NCP, where there were too many differences between elements that resulted in massive imbalance. So, actually you are incorrect stating that all AGEOD games have flawless combat, as PoN is designed to be an improvement.
Indeed, this is working as designed, maybe not to your liking, but as designed. How else could the Boers do anything if they are expected to never win a battle? Did the Boers win battles? Yes.
There are a lot of things being neglected in this discussion, there is more going on behind the scenes than just the elements. As I keep on saying, and am keep on being ignored upon, is the impact of leaders, their stats, abilities, and activity level, along with terrain, supply, infrastructure, frontage, etc.
A force of 150 000 sent to a territory does not guarantee that all 150 000 will be in the front lines and actively engage the enemy. 300 000 Italians were sent against 70 000 Austrians in 1866, but fewer than 80 000 ever actually engaged the Austrians. This was because the command of the 300 000 Italians was horrid, while the Austrians much more united (constant in-fighting and incompetence hindered the Italian cause, which meant that so many troops fled the field without even engaging the enemy as the rest of the force that did engage was beaten back).
Boer elements are not 1:1 with a British element (never claimed to be), but is rather 1:6 (for every 6 Boers, the combat power is 1 British). However, the Boer element has other neat bonus', such as the better ability to spot, hide, patrol and evade, along with retreat bonus, desert bonus, and movement bonus. This, when up against the British line infantry (British Colonial Infantry are in a better position, given that they handle being in rough terrain a lot better due to a Colonial ability), they have an advantage, which the existing Boers did (in tactics). So, for a Boer element to hold off a British element makes sense, but maybe the representation of the quantity of men in a Boer element is off rather than something wrong about its stats?
I just counted up all of the active Boers in the Scenario, it just breaks the 30 000 man mark, with the Bulk being found in a few militia brigades and two cavalry brigades (about 14 000) which are not of much service. About 40 000 Boers were in the field forces to start, meaning that 10 000 are actually missing.
Now, what I can see being done is to change the Boer Kommando to a 500 man unit (from a 50 man unit) by simply changing the men per hit from 10 to 100. This results in no change in OOB, or stats for individual elements, it is merely a paper number showing total men. This should probably make up the missing 10 000 Boers, and mean that the Kommando's are a bit larger when you count up the men (i.e., each element is the proper 1/6 strength of a 3000 man british element, instead of 1/60 that a 50 man element would be).
Realistically, what does this change? Nothing, other than the representation of the number of men in the scenario (given that the Boers are under-represented when you count troops). Therefore the 20 000 Boers (2/3 the entire Boer Army) would have been increased to 27 000 men defeating 150 000 men.
tevans6220 wrote:I have offered proof on the Paradox forums by providing a screenshot. In that screenshot 11,000 British soldiers fought 750 Boers. The British casualty numbers were 9500 compared to the Boer loss of 150. The remaining 600 Boers took 3200 British prisoners. Prisoners outnumbered captors 5 to 1. You can try explaining that way with game mechanics but it doesn't make any sense. How is it that 11,000 British soldiers with 12 cannon can only hit 150 Boers while the Boers are able to severely punish the British and practically wipe out their whole force?
You say Boer elements are not 1:1 to British elements but are 1:6 instead. How am I supposed to know that? I only have the information the game presents to me. Which is numbers. Clicking on an icon element shows the manpower and supply situation of that element. Taking that element into battle then clicking on the icon will show losses of manpower and supply. So how do those numbers not mean anything?
Even in your Italy vs Austria example 70k vs 80k is practically even numberswise. Then it comes down to terrain, leadership and supply. In my example both sides were well armed and well supplied. Terrain was rolling countryside or hills. Leadership was almost equal with a slight advantage to the Boer. But leadership isn't going to mean much if you're outnumbered 10 to 1. Even if I could only feed 1000 troops into the battle at a time I should still win the battle by attrition. At some point the Boers should have been wiped out or run out of ammunition. These results don't make any sense.
theonlystd wrote:I to have to wonder about battle results
I outnumbered the natives 22k to 6k .. Had more elements.. Arty.. On defense 5 of my units had favorable ground ect ect. Battle results thing said they had Supply and Ammo
I lost 6000 Prussians to kill 50 Natives.........
Really if the Prussians were half starved and having to use there guns as a clubs.. They should of taken more Natives with them than that ..
McNaughton wrote:Were these colonial troops? Were they fully supplied? If you send metropolitan troops to colonial areas, even with a lot of supply wagons, expect them to fall apart fast. This is a design to keep players from sending their entire army to squish a small native force.
McNaughton wrote:Were these colonial troops? Were they fully supplied? If you send metropolitan troops to colonial areas, even with a lot of supply wagons, expect them to fall apart fast. This is a design to keep players from sending their entire army to squish a small native force.
theonlystd wrote:They were not colonial troops
Tis something that should really be said in the abilities part when looking at an element ..
I assumed they would die at a much higher rate attrition wise .
I didnt know they'd become so indept as to lose to natives even with outnumbering them heavily and on defense ..
montgomeryjlion wrote:Agree 100%
I played through the first 4 turns of a game.
I lost every single battle as the British.
All at horrendous odds for.
Didn't matter which general, whether I was attacking.
I lost 4 Armies, including Bullers entire Corps (14000 men), fighting 3000 Boers.
The Boers overran most of South Africa.
Couldn't happen.
I'm from Southern Africa.
I've been studying the war for 30 years.
The Boers did as well as they did because they picked great defensive positions and the British Generals were idiots.
Even then, the Boers couldn't take Kimberley or Mafeking or Ladysmith.
They never caused more than about 1500 casualties in one battle.
They certainly never could have and never intended to attack any further than they did.
Yes, I know it's a game.
But it's supposed to be believable and feasible.
It's not.
I'm playing a PBEM game of AACW as the South and if it acted like the Boer War, I'd be besieging Boston by the end of 1861.
It needs to be fixed.
Flame over.
But, thanks for the tremendous game anyway.
I believe it will be fixed.
Franciscus wrote:I must say I do not understand your experience with this scenario. I just finished it, and won easily playing the Brits. Surely I lost a few batles, but in the end my numbers were obviously overwhelming. Also, I did not experience the absurd losses in specific battles you guys report - although there were a couple of battles with 100% casualties (which is almost never realistic), and I lost globally more men than the Boers (see pic - this in December 1900, after prolonging the game until every Boer army was wiped out. Brits ~ 120.000 losses, Boers ~ 45.000, including prisioners).
The AI Boer armies actually pulled off capturing East London and Port Elizabeth (which actually was a dumb move, because they were isolated and besieged :neener .
As to my armies, knowing that regular Brit infantry suffers tremenduous attrition inside Africa, I took care to build depots wherever I went, and stop at least one turn between moves, to recover cohesion. With these obvious precautions, it is just too easy.
Regards
tevans6220 wrote:What version are you playing because in my version 1.01f there isn't an option or any way to build depots. I get a build fort option that takes 120 days or 8 turns but that's it. Where is it documented about Brits suffering attrition in Africa? I don't remember reading that anywhere. Never said I couldn't win the scenario. I said the battle results don't make sense and they don't. The scenario is easily won even with the high losses by waiting for reinforcements and then doing an all out blitz. It doesn't even take 25 turns to do that. This scenario is supposed to last 78 turns. How? It doesn't even come close. I know about cohesion recovery and I do that. But nowhere do I see how to build a depot. It just isn't there.
Correction: Just tried another Boer War scenario. This time even though the tooltip for forts says 120 days, forts are actually built in 1 turn. And this time there is a build depot option that is actually lit and usuable. It never appeared lit or usuable in any other Boer game I played. I actually thought the only depots permitted were the depots already on the map. I know I definately checked because I'm very methodical about using depots to maintain supply. Possibly a bug? Also until this current game I never had White actually removed when Buller appeared to take command. White always stuck around but in this game when Buller appears, White is gone. That never happened before either. What is going on? I'm using the 1.02f beta.
Franciscus wrote:I am in 1.01f.
Build depot options are not available if your force has no sufficient supply elements to build them (which by the way is not a good idea in Africa )
(PS: indeed forts are built in just one turn...bug ? I will have to check it out)
Regards
Spruce wrote:I recall during ACW I had Leonidas Polk's Corps on very agressive when he smashed the Yankee troops and then he broke trough and was threathening Ohio and India. The problem was that he had to cross a river were he encountered a smaller Yankee Corps (or perhaps more or less a corps).
The battle results were staggering, Polks entire corps was lost (21.000 men) because I gave them orders to do some "Picketts charge" deep in enemy territory at river crossing penalty, and having bad luck to cross (an unforseen) an enemy corps. I remember the enemy had casualties like 4000... I must say that at first I was also enraged by such results. Then afterwards I reconsidered them to be my own fault.
The point = the same losses you describe in the game Pride of Nations.
by the way = it's a different game so this remark can be pointless, bu always be carefull to pick aggresiveness stance with AGEOD game engines.
McNaughton wrote:I am sure about finding examples will be relatively easy, but maybe it is designed too much to prove a certain point. Are casualties too high? Yes, they probably are. Should forces be annihilated in the field like this? Not really, was a very rare situation. But, keep in mind if you have a reckless/hothead leader in command, they will not be able to retreat for a certain number of hours of battle, which is possilby one of the reasons for this annihilation being somewhat frequent (I am revamping all leader abilities actually, am in the midst of it and it is a lot of work, but one thing is a big reduction of hothead and reckless). This may serve to help things.
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