rezaf
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Why can't the F4 ledger be a little more like this?

Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:48 am

Let me start this post with a little background on me as a player: I've been playing and enjoying AGEOD games for years now - I own every AGE engine game except RuS (not too interested in the topic), most even twice (digital plus physical copy), and I never had much troubles with previous titles interfaces. They always required a little 'getting used to', but once you grasped the mechanics one, I find them pretty straight forward to use.
My favorite AGEOD game is AACW, because it offers more options (the unit building and reinforcement screens, transportation etc.) and the hand drawn map just look SO much nicer than the rendered stuff.

So I was excited when the PoN demo was released - this game had been touted as 'the next big AGEOD thing' for years and years, so I was looking forward to finally playing it.

By now, I started the demo numerous times and played around, but my favorite AGEOD feature - the divisional stuff - has been ejected, and there is now a lot of economic stuff to manage that is ... opaque, to say the least.

I had to do quite a bit of stumbling around aimlessly to figure out a lot of the basic infos that should be right at hand.
The Trading stuff requires far too much switching-around to pull off without losing track, and the biggest sinner is probably the balance screen - that one is a bastardly combination of information overload and Where's Waldo.

And I STILL have basically no true idea what I'm doing, frequently run into a brick wall when trying to figure out some specific or another and can't get rid of the feeling that doing ANYTHING takes about ten times as many clicks as it should.

So, I don't want to stop at 'this all sucks, improve it!', because I know a little constructiveness is always helpful - so I put some thoughts into the F4 screen (cause it covers the part of the game where I feel it's by far the most opaque).

Here's the F4 screen as implemented:
Image

Now, apart from the taxes stuff at the bottom, what does it really do?
It throws information at me at a pace that tops the firing rate of a submachine gun. I get tons and tons of icons and little numbers, that essentially give me the same information the balance sheet gives me.
There's a LITTLE more detail, but not quite so much that it's truly useful.
As a new player, I see little reason to enter the screen at all. There IS some stuff hidden therein, but it's not really obvious and falls way, WAY short of what should be there. You can see details about stuff, like the trade probabilities, in tooltips and you can enable or disable all production facilities of a good in the 2nd row. And you have a lot of infos available at a glance, which CAN be useful in some circumstances, I guess.
But for a new player and a lot of common situations in the game, the screen is borderline useless.

So I did a little thinking and moving around stuff etc., I rearranged UI elements that are already in the game and tried not to add anything substantial.
Here's what I came up with:
Image

As you can see, my F4 screen no longer contains as many infos at a glance, but on the other hand, you can - without ever leaving this screen - do LOTS of stuff that requires you to open half a dozen screens or menus in he game as it is now.

Some points of interest:
For both income and expenses, it provides a scrollable list of the game-objects that affect it.

For Income, you can see you get 15 coal from a trade with the Northern Germany trading zone.
Another 1 coal is produced from your local craftsmen - or so I believe, I had a really, really hard time finding out about that one...
To the right, there's a trade button you can press, which should then open another screen which lists all trade zones in which you can do trade and that have the current good (coal in this example) on offer.
You can modify the details of the existing trade by just clicking the buttons on it. Easy!

For Expenses, you have a list of all the factories that consume coal - that's all already in the game, but you need to manually click through your provinces and browse smallprint on a ton of tooltips to gather it.
The only thing I added is the small red boxes which spell out how much of this particular good is consumed by that facility.
You could enable or disable any specific facility just by clicking it's power icon or you could toggle them all by using the power button at the right., You could double click on any of them to close the ledger, select it and move to the province where it's located. Easy!

Even a newbie could manage his economy MUCH easier if we had such a screen in the game. Why don't we?

If I find the time, maybe I'll take a look at some other screen(s), too.
Until then ... discuss! ;)

Edit: I just realized I haven't upped the newest version. But the only thing I added is numbers in brackets after the Income and Expenses headers to sum up. So just imagine they were there, ok?
_____
rezaf

Romtos
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:00 pm

Factory listing included in the ledger would indeed be far superior. I like your idea. It could even be a ledger on its own (or sub-ledger), in order to maintain the overview 'balance sheet' function of the current F4 ledger.

allan_boa
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:10 pm

yep it would be great as a sub-ledger !

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Franciscus
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:17 pm

I agree completely with rezaf. His ideas for the F4/B screen/T screen current mess should be seriously taken in consderation by Ageod.

Oli le Belge
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:30 pm

It's AWESOME !

StephenT
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:42 pm

Nice idea for an extra ledger page(s).

Please let me keep the current F4 ledger as well though, so I can see my situation at a glance instead of having to click through 40 separate screens like that one to get an overview of trade... :p

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Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:53 pm

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marcusjm
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:06 pm

Maybe we should add a chip in feature. AGEOD states what each feature would cost, once the donations reach that level they do it ;) .

Seriously though. All these ideas would be good to save for the expansion, that is when development costs are justified ;) . Plus, now AGEOD has a huge advantage since they can utilize Paradox resources as well.

Adding sales to the B screen would be somewhat cheaper I think, the T screen wasn't the best idea.

rezaf
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:31 pm

Well, thanks to all those who voiced their support. :)

Gray_Lensman wrote:Maybe everyone ought to take up a collection for the costs necessary for the AGE studio to pay a new artist to redesign all the UI screens for Pride of Nations!


Artist? What should an artist do? Except the oversized coal icon there's no new art whatsoever in the screen I proposed.
I just browned the background picture out, but it could use the same as the current F4 ledger. So what's it an artist ought to do?
_____
rezaf

marcusjm
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:41 pm

Personally I think they should go for the book style that all other age games has. That way the could motivate some design budget.

RobC04
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:47 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:Maybe everyone ought to take up a collection for the costs necessary for the AGE studio to pay a new artist to redesign all the UI screens for Pride of Nations!

It's been stated by Pocus that the UI graphics are the most difficult items to have designed and integrated into the game design. Myself... I'd rather they use their limited resources squashing real bugs and adding new DLC instead of redesigning an already functional interface.


People shouldn't stop making suggestions to improve the game just because it would incur development costs. Whether the cost is worth it is for ageod to decide. Like the OP said, he didn't introduce new artwork, only rearranged what was there, so it might be a low cost improvement. Don't forget the additional sales it could possibly make if someone finds the game more accessible (I am on the fence whether to get it).

From the games I follow, the ones that get the most feedback from its customers are the ones that improve the most. A lack of feedback in general shows a lack of interest.

Athens
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:00 pm

The current F4 ledger is an incentive to shelf PON. That's too is costing money.
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975

My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/

[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]

the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

Cordell
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:05 pm

This F4 proposal looks fantastic... no clue how long it could take or how much it could cost to implement, but btw i personally would be totally agree to pay for that kind of improvment who provide more confort for playing...
After i can imagine since the game is already out, Ageod as other short range priority for now (in games bugs) ... but maybe could consider in the future...

Cette proposition d'interface semble excellente. Aucune idée du temps ou du cout nécessaire pour l'implémenter, mais en tout état de cause, je serais ravi de payer pour ce genre d'amélioration qui apporterai un confort de jeu certain.
Ceci dit j'imagine bien que comme le jeu est désormais sorti, Ageod a d'autres priorités pour l'instant (la chasse aux bugs)... mais pourrait peut être s'y pencher dans le futur...

marcusjm
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:25 pm

Still. Could any of the betas/devs answer why you ditched the good things you already had? The AACW ledger is way way better than this, why did you backwards in design?

F4 is not that bad initself but maybe some general summary screens are still needed.

Certainly no reason to shelf the game at least ;) .

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willgamer
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:35 pm

StephenT wrote:Nice idea for an extra ledger page(s).

Please let me keep the current F4 ledger as well though, so I can see my situation at a glance instead of having to click through 40 separate screens like that one to get an overview of trade... :p


Yeah, now that I've gotten a couple of hundred turns under my belt, I appreciate the current F4 for the overview that it is and love the OPs new design if it could be integrated with it. :thumbsup:

@Gray_Lensman- Spent a career in IT (programmer). I never saw a designer, no matter how brilliant, or an end user, no matter how experienced, that could specify a really good GUI by themselves. It always took both and multiple iterations to succeed. :)

Athens
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:36 pm

marcusjm wrote:Still. Could any of the betas/devs answer why you ditched the good things you already had? The AACW ledger is way way better than this, why did you backwards in design?

F4 is not that bad initself but maybe some general summary screens are still needed.

Certainly no reason to shelf the game at least ;) .


For those liking PON and having at least some experience in AGE GUI, no. For the others...WW1 Gold is the perfect example of a now fine game, which, apart its poor reputation due to the numerous bugs, remains very confidential because of some quirks in the GUI ( like reinforcements ).
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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Franciscus
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:53 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:Maybe everyone ought to take up a collection for the costs necessary for the AGE studio to pay a new artist to redesign all the UI screens for Pride of Nations!

It's been stated by Pocus that the UI graphics are the most difficult items to have designed and integrated into the game design. Myself... I'd rather they use their limited resources squashing real bugs and adding new DLC instead of redesigning an already functional interface.


Sorry, Gray, I disagree with you.

Of course, gamestopping bugs like the one I am experiencing (Directx invalid call) should have top priority. But improvements to the game design or data should all be considered. If DB data can and is improving (with much volunteer work), why can not the UI be improved ?
Besides, why spend time and money creating DLCs if the game suffers from a not so good UI that probably is keeping potential buyers from buying the game ?

Just a couple of simple (yes, simple) things will help: for instance the arrows to cycle through the various ledger pages (that somehow were ditched from the Ageod UI) or a button to open the B screen directly from the F4 ledger.

And as to the costs/work/time involved, let me tell you about Histwar. A game designed by one man (JMM), that you, Gray, will never play because it does not have flashy graphics like the TW games (but nevertheless is the BEST napoleonic battle simulator ever). It was released more than a year ago. The GUI was OK, although a bit clunky and "old". JMM, singlehandedly, not only has squashed most bugs but has designed a whole new modern interface, by himself, and now we players can choose between the 2 GUIs, ingame, at will.

Things can be done and games can be improved, like most things in life. It's just a question of priorities and will.

Regards

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ERISS
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:18 pm

Franciscus wrote:Besides, why spend time and money creating DLCs if the game suffers from a not so good UI that probably is keeping potential buyers from buying the game ?

Or more probably from buying the DLCs once the game has been bought...

marcusjm
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:47 pm

ERISS wrote:Or more probably from buying the DLCs once the game has been bought...


Well, I bought hoi3 after Sf cane out so if the improvements are what tips you over then it will draw in new customers.

After bug fixes I look forward to DlC. This is already one of the best grand strategy games, it can only get better.

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ohms_law
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:24 pm

How about we leave the business decisions to those who are in the best position to make them (namely, the two Phils)?

I don't think that they mind seeing what we'd like to see added, regardless of how realistic those ideas may or may not be. Even if an idea is completely unrealistic, it can get people thinking of the issue, and even of alternative solutions. Besides, even if some ideas are not realistic for the current game, they can be taken into consideration for the future.

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Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:36 pm

I will say this for everyone, if they could do everything, they would. It is just a matter of time and finances. So, if it is not implemented, then it is a matter that other things got ahead of it, not that they are disregarding the suggestions.

AndrewKurtz
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Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:53 pm

I have to agree as well. All suggestions should be made. The devs should decide which make sense, both from a game and business perspective.

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RobC04
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:46 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:Just where did I imply that people should stop making suggestions? Go back and reread my post. I stated my own opinion of where I think AGEod's limited programmer/developer resources should be better applied for now based on direct statements made to me in the past by Pocus in regards to GUI changes.


My mistake then. Your "take up the collection plate" comment seemed like you were trying to be a little snarky and I interpreted it as being dissmissive to the OP's suggestion. I think your response to my post was a better explanation then "take up the collection plate". Also, it would have been even more helpful to state why you think the OP's suggestion would or would not be an improvement to the game in addition to your opinion about ageod's allocation of resources since you do have a lot of experience with ageod's games. In any case, sorry for misinterpreting your post.

rezaf
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:05 pm

Yeah, thanks for your clarifications Gary.
I was just confused how you had spelled it out. Maybe it's a problem with the language barrier and the term artist includes more things than I'd imagine.

Anyway, note that I never wrote "Implement this. Now." anywhere in this thread. Quite the contrary, actually - in the very title I'm asking why the ledger can't look (could have written work just as well) a LITTLE more like the one I then proposed.

And I only created the mockup in the first place because I felt it made my suggestions more clear. A picture says more than thousand words and all that.

I can totally live with it if they say "Nah, we don't like it.", or "We like it, but it's not possible to implement it.".
Unlike you, I DO believe the game will totally and utterly tank with the UI it shipped with, but that's my personal, humble opinion, and I don't expect anyone to act on it.
_____
rezaf

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hgilmer
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:37 pm

One thing they could do is label the sliders for buy and sell, lol. Someone said they adjusted those on the F4 screen and I looked at it for about 10 minutes before I even saw them. I was about to say, "On mine there are no sliders!" Lol.

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Franciscus
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:17 pm

hgilmer wrote:One thing they could do is label the sliders for buy and sell, lol. Someone said they adjusted those on the F4 screen and I looked at it for about 10 minutes before I even saw them. I was about to say, "On mine there are no sliders!" Lol.


But those sliders are nearly useless. They are merely your (gamer) prediction of the global success of your buy and sell orders, nothing more. They do not define this % of success.
An example of the uselessness of those sliders: I am trying to play SP in my laptop. I want to buy, among other things, coal and mechanical parts. I know I will buy almost all the coal that I want (so, I can "predict" 100% sucess in buying coal) but I also know that no matter how much I pay or "predict", I will not buy any mech parts, because no one is selling them. So, what's the use of a global (all goods), buying sucess prediction ?
As to selling, things are even worse, because we do not have much (any ?) info of the future demand of the goods we are selling.

Much, much better would be the simple (yes, simple) addiction of a link to the B screen on the F4 ledger, and the option to SELL goods directly on the B screen. In that way, the T screen would only be needed to micromanage occasionally.

Athens
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:21 pm

This ledger is almost just an excel spreadsheet with icons. And It's worse than Excel, because you have first to learn each icon signification before even understanding the figures....
Fatal Years mod for RUS: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2875975



My blog: http://moddercorner.com/about/



[SIZE="2"]Players quotes about Fatal Years:[/size]



the more I play this the more I become convinced that RUS is one of the best strategy games I have ever played... and I have played many since the mid 80's. The AI in this mod is at level with Sid Meier's best efforts.

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willgamer
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:22 pm

Franciscus wrote:But those sliders are nearly useless. They are merely your (gamer) prediction of the global success of your buy and sell orders, nothing more. They do not define this % of success.
An example of the uselessness of those sliders: I am trying to play SP in my laptop. I want to buy, among other things, coal and mechanical parts. I know I will buy almost all the coal that I want (so, I can "predict" 100% sucess in buying coal) but I also know that no matter how much I pay or "predict", I will not buy any mech parts, because no one is selling them. So, what's the use of a global (all goods), buying sucess prediction ?
As to selling, things are even worse, because we do not have much (any ?) info of the future demand of the goods we are selling.

Much, much better would be the simple (yes, simple) addiction of a link to the B screen on the F4 ledger, and the option to SELL goods directly on the B screen. In that way, the T screen would only be needed to micromanage occasionally.


Yep!

At a bare minimum, there would need to be adjustable individually for each product.

Better,too, would be a check box to set it to last turns buys/sales.

OTOH, I think it's rumored that changes are in the works.... :)

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Franciscus
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Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:28 pm

Athens wrote:This ledger is almost just an excel spreadsheet with icons. And It's worse than Excel, because you have first to learn each icon signification before even understanding the figures....


Unfortunately, so true... :(

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