killing injuns

[rasnell]

Very frustrating. Cannot do anything about the marauding Indians because I can't declare war and I thought I read in manual that you don't have to declare war as America trying to killing the native Americans.

Sioux are not even listed in the diplomacy window. Every time I try to DOW the Cherokee, I get a msg the next turn that my diplomats weren't good enough to do that.

I don't understand why; nothing is explained; it's not intuitive; really trying to have patience with this game, but there is so much that is undocumented and not user friendly.

Also having many, many messages that my colonial actions are failing or cannot be performed, even though I don't get that msg when I place them. I learn in messages the next turn. Did it still cost me even when it doesn't execute?

I just don't get it. Any help would be appreciated, especially with a manual that is patched along with the game.

[DooberGuy]

Okay, I'll try and explain it how I understand it. First of all, the Indians aren't really "nations", think of them more as rebels on "your" land. You own the land as colonial protectorates, they're just occupying them. Second, you already start off at war with Sioux and Cherokee, but not at war with the other Indians. Third, colonial actions should be carefully placed on areas where you have troops garrisoned, otherwise the Indians will destroy them. Any colonial missions that fail will indeed cost you resources. That's pretty much the limit of my understanding, so if you have any other colonial questions someone else will need to ring in.

[montgomeryjlion]

Well most of that was true until the last beta
Now you don't start at war with any Indians and you can declare war on them.
I haven't played the US with the new beta yet but that's my understanding.

MJL

[rasnell]

I am playing the new beta. Let me give the specifics. I'm in the first year as the USA. The Cherokees are tearing me apart, pillaging throughout the West.

I have cavalry, infantry and military outposts in multiple areas where I can see Cherokee icons.

I'm on an aggressive stance. I cannot declare war. Every diplomatic mission to DOW has failed for unknown and unexplained reasons. My troops can't find them to engage, I guess.

None of this is clear. None is explained. Odder, the treaty window lists the Cherokee as neutral to me, yet they are pillaging everywhere in my territory and I can't do anything to defend.

It seems like the only thing working in my favor is that I am gaining military control each turn by staying on the aggressive stance.

[Sepiche]

It sounds like you're doing everything right, but I'm not sure why your war declarations are failing. I haven't tried it in the current build, but in my 1.01 game as the US was able to declare on native factions just fine.

If it's a bug hopefully one of the devs will speak up.

[Pocus]

You should be able to DOW them, right.

[rasnell]

No. Unable to DOW the Sioux or Cherokee. Tried four consecutive turns, and message always said my diplomats couldn't pull it off.

I could not find Sioux listed anywhere in the treaty window: not a tribe, not minor, not unorganized, not major power, not minor power, and not in the Americas. Not even listed that I could find.

Manual says you don't have to DOW to attack American Indians, but that didn't work either. I would send cavalry in with aggressive, attack stance where Indian icons are in same province, causing pillaging damage, and nothing happens. Both icons are side by side and it says Cherokees are "neutral."

I'm lost. About ready to give up. Two weeks of playing, including some vacation time, having to restart with the patches, and still have not even completed one year of game time.

I just don't have the time or patience. I really want to hang in there. Game has such depth and promise, but manual, undocumented features, hidden details are just too dense to be any fun. Please note that I'm not a fly-by-nighter. I own AACW, BON 1 and 2, Napolean, and now PON.

Hard to know what to do, even after reading manual three times, everything on the forums and studying AAR and strategy guides. Nothing is working intuitively -- at least not for me.

[rasnell]

By the way, I have cavalry or infantry units in each area being pillaged; I have established military outposts or forts in each. Only thing that seems to be working is that I'm gaining military control.

Military prosecute has worked and failed a few times in each.

[caranorn]

Well, these are not hostile actions by indians. These are indians (and probably your forces) running out of supply, failing at foraging and therefore pillaging the regions in search of supply. I just started running a test game to find out what your problem might be, got no messages related to hostile indians and instead noticed that indeed some regions were starting to be pillaged during bad weather...

Not sure what the best fix might be. Maybe raise native ability to forage? Maybe reduce indian forces in 1850 (and add new units by event if the US player is too agressive)?

[willgamer]

Well, these are not hostile actions by indians. These are indians (and probably your forces) running out of supply, failing at foraging and therefore pillaging the regions in search of supply. I just started running a test game to find out what your problem might be, got no messages related to hostile indians and instead noticed that indeed some regions were starting to be pillaged during bad weather...

Not sure what the best fix might be. Maybe raise native ability to forage? Maybe reduce indian forces in 1850 (and add new units by event if the US player is too agressive)?

But pillaging doesn't really damage anything, does it (other than lower the ability of another unit to forage)?

Isn't this WAD?

[caranorn]

But pillaging doesn't really damage anything, does it (other than lower the ability of another unit to forage)?

Isn't this WAD?

Probably not WaD (that is this exact situation, pillage due to failure to forage is of course WaD) as indian units are likely to slowly starve...

[rasnell]

But I'm getting messages that they are disrupting the region and then seeing the burning flame icon of pillaging. Seems related to me.

[DooberGuy]

Okay, I see what you're talking about now. Don't worry about the flames and such, I know you get messages about rampaging Indians and you see all those flames and you think you're in trouble, but really all that doesn't matter. The only thing that really matters is if they are destroying the colonial buildings in the regions. If your forts/trade-posts etc. are still standing then it really doesn't matter what the Indians do.

[hgilmer]

I jut keep "taking" territories by getting military control and upping CP. I keep hoping that doing the military options will piss them off enough to fight.

I have not tried to DoW on them yet. But, supposedly I'm pretty close to their capital region and once I take that and build it up I can hopefully get them to capitulate.

I agree with the OP, though. We should be able to attack them no matter what because historically that happened often enough for it to be available.

Plus, I'd imagine they should be a little more aggressive. If they hadn't been in real life, we would have just pushed them out of the way with no bloodshed at all.

[rasnell]

What's frustrating is that it appears I was doing everything correctly and didn't even know it or know why. I love the distinctiveness of these games and know it's a very small team, but this one just might not be worth the excessive investment of time to learn, understand or find the hidden details.

And the pace is so outrageously slow. If I addictively played every spare moment, I'll probably get about 10 years in and be ready to quit. Not much will happen in 10 years to justify all the time invested.

Sid Meier once said that all the features, details and depth don't matter if it's just not fun. I'm going to keep trying, but I haven't found the fun factor yet. I hope it's there after all the digging and learning curve.

[hgilmer]

Well, I hate that for you. We've all been at that place I'd imagine where we just don't have fun with a game. To some extent, I felt that with Victoria because of the constant revolts I had to micromanage. Sucked all the fun out of it for me.

[hgilmer]

I finally got sick of dancing around the Cherokees. I DoW and it went through. I had a fight on the 1st turn after doing it. I don't know why it is not working for you.

[rasnell]

Why do diplomats fail anyway? What is the chance factor that diplomats can't deliver a DOW msg to the Cherokee? Seems a bit formal and irrelevant related to America and their history. Breaking treaties -- now that's American.

[vaalen]

What's frustrating is that it appears I was doing everything correctly and didn't even know it or know why. I love the distinctiveness of these games and know it's a very small team, but this one just might not be worth the excessive investment of time to learn, understand or find the hidden details.

And the pace is so outrageously slow. If I addictively played every spare moment, I'll probably get about 10 years in and be ready to quit. Not much will happen in 10 years to justify all the time invested.

Sid Meier once said that all the features, details and depth don't matter if it's just not fun. I'm going to keep trying, but I haven't found the fun factor yet. I hope it's there after all the digging and learning curve.

Rasnell, I would suggest you try the battle scenarios for some fun. I have enjoyed three of them tremendously. I expect I will also enjoy the other two.

The Sepoy Mutiny scenario is the best game on a colonial war that has ever been done, and it is a lot of fun to play as the British. Just be careful not to move your troops during the monsoon season, or they will literally melt away!

[hgilmer]

Why do diplomats fail anyway? What is the chance factor that diplomats can't deliver a DOW msg to the Cherokee? Seems a bit formal and irrelevant related to America and their history. Breaking treaties -- now that's American.

I don't know. My DoW went through and I am not sure I got a message, but the indians started fighting, so I knew it had worked.

[hgilmer]

I'm trying to figure out how long it will take before the Cherokees stop fighting or something. It seems like they will keep fighting forever.

[TheDoctorKing]

They will keep fighting until you make a formal colony out of their capital region. This will require keeping military control of the state containing their capital until you can play a good number of colonial decisions. The "formal colony" decision requires you to have something like 40 colonial penetration average throughout the region and 60 in the capital region.

The capital for the Cherokee is in Talequah in the newest patch. For Dakota it is in Rapid City. Nez Perce is Baker City and Apache I think is Las Cruces but I could be wrong. Somewhere in New Mexico however.

The trick is to flood their territory with units. You will have to build units in addition to what you get to start. I find that an expedition brigade or one of your starting units in each region with a cavalry division or two as "fire brigade" units is a good mix. You need to build a depot chain every other region or so to carry supply. You build a military outpost in each region to provide supplies to your garrision and also give additional (though small) defensive forces. Then, you zoom about with your fire brigade chasing their units down until you kill all their active units. Then, new ones will appear every now and then and you have to keep on killing them, but you can pull some of your guys out and go after the next victim.

You can ignore, for example, the Dakota (they're not called the Sioux, maybe that's why you couldn't find them) while going after the Cherokee, or vice versa. They won't go outside their claimed regions. For the Cherokee, this is New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas, southern Nebraska, Oklahoma, northern and western Texas, and southwestern Arkansas. For the Dakota this is everywhere north of the Cherokee regions, east of the Rockies and east as far as western Minnesota and Iowa. The Apache and Nez Perce, btw, won't attack at all, as they have neutral relations with you. You will still have to occupy some of their territory at least in order to get military control and launch some of your colonial missions. Ultimately, you will flood their territory with garrisons as well though this might have to wait until after the Civil War.

[hgilmer]

They will keep fighting until you make a formal colony out of their capital region. This will require keeping military control of the state containing their capital until you can play a good number of colonial decisions. The "formal colony" decision requires you to have something like 40 colonial penetration average throughout the region and 60 in the capital region.

The capital for the Cherokee is in Talequah in the newest patch. For Dakota it is in Rapid City. Nez Perce is Baker City and Apache I think is Las Cruces but I could be wrong. Somewhere in New Mexico however.

The trick is to flood their territory with units. You will have to build units in addition to what you get to start. I find that an expedition brigade or one of your starting units in each region with a cavalry division or two as "fire brigade" units is a good mix. You need to build a depot chain every other region or so to carry supply. You build a military outpost in each region to provide supplies to your garrision and also give additional (though small) defensive forces. Then, you zoom about with your fire brigade chasing their units down until you kill all their active units. Then, new ones will appear every now and then and you have to keep on killing them, but you can pull some of your guys out and go after the next victim.

You can ignore, for example, the Dakota (they're not called the Sioux, maybe that's why you couldn't find them) while going after the Cherokee, or vice versa. They won't go outside their claimed regions. For the Cherokee, this is New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas, southern Nebraska, Oklahoma, northern and western Texas, and southwestern Arkansas. For the Dakota this is everywhere north of the Cherokee regions, east of the Rockies and east as far as western Minnesota and Iowa. The Apache and Nez Perce, btw, won't attack at all, as they have neutral relations with you. You will still have to occupy some of their territory at least in order to get military control and launch some of your colonial missions. Ultimately, you will flood their territory with garrisons as well though this might have to wait until after the Civil War.

That is pretty much what I'm doing. Thanks for the information on how to get them to finally give up.

[razorbackjac]

What's frustrating is that it appears I was doing everything correctly and didn't even know it or know why. I love the distinctiveness of these games and know it's a very small team, but this one just might not be worth the excessive investment of time to learn, understand or find the hidden details.

And the pace is so outrageously slow. If I addictively played every spare moment, I'll probably get about 10 years in and be ready to quit. Not much will happen in 10 years to justify all the time invested.

Sid Meier once said that all the features, details and depth don't matter if it's just not fun. I'm going to keep trying, but I haven't found the fun factor yet. I hope it's there after all the digging and learning curve.

This is a long, long game and it took years to control/take over the indian lands. Your not going to get it done in a few years. Think about it Custer died in 1876, I think or some where around there. This game starts in 1850.

Historically it should take some years or the game would be ahistorical. Hang in there.

[hgilmer]

I read in one of the threads about how to get to Formal colony with the Indian areas.

So, I was looking at Formal Colony in the game and it keeps telling me my CP isn't high enough. It would be nice if it told me exactly what regions are bringing me down (maybe as a tooltip) because I can see it doesn't work because of CP but I am unsure if I need to get higher CP in state (the other two regions are owned by the Dakotans) or bring up all of the Cherokee region average CP. I would think it is high enough, but I can't be sure.

[StephenT]

So, I was looking at Formal Colony in the game and it keeps telling me my CP isn't high enough. It would be nice if it told me exactly what regions are bringing me down (maybe as a tooltip) because I can see it doesn't work because of CP but I am unsure if I need to get higher CP in state (the other two regions are owned by the Dakotans) or bring up all of the Cherokee region average CP. I would think it is high enough, but I can't be sure.

I had the same problem trying to get Oklahoma as a Formal Colony, but I eventually managed it. My conclusions:

1. The tooltip says you need an average CP of 40% in all areas, and 50% in the capital. However, I wasn't able to use the decision until I'd achieved a minimum of 40% in every area. I suspect the tooltip is wrong, unless there was someting else going on.

2. Even after getting minimum 40% everywhere, it took a few turns before I was allowed to place the decision. The only reason I can suspect is that my military control was hovering around 50% because Cherokee units were wandering around. (I wasn't at war with them.) It doesn't actually say you need to military control the entire area before placing a formal colony, but it looks like you do.

[hgilmer]

Yeah, I finally got to Formal Colony in Minnesota, Oklahoma, and Colorado. Well, Colorado, I have the decision played, I just need the CTDs to stop to do about 3 more turns.

[hgilmer]

Finally! Cha-ching! The Apache and the Cherokee gave up!

[hgilmer]

Well, only problem is I still have a treaty of war with the Cherokee. Shouldn't it be gone now?

[TheDoctorKing]

I believe that in the newest patch the state of war disappears once the colonial nation gives in. This is why it is generally not a good idea to declare war though.