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Pocus
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One-feature-a-day articles: #4 Exploring the Heart of Africa (and more!)

Wed May 11, 2011 2:04 pm

In 1850, there were still a lot of lands that were shrouded in mystery for the western powers. These lands, mostly in Africa, but also in South America or Siberia, regularly attracted bold adventurers, motivated by a variety of goals: fame, riches, genuine interest in meeting new people or uncovering geographic features, to cite a few. The presence of colonizing powers in many of these areas went gradually from a few merchants dealing with the natives to the establishment of outposts, trade companies and then the seizing of land.


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It was thus a continuous and progressive process most of the time, spanning decades sometimes. In Pride of Nations, it is possible to uncover the terra incognita that reigns supreme in these areas, thanks to the usage of exploration parties. These parties come in no less than 4 flavors. The basic form, called quite simple exploration party, can uncover a region adjacent to it that is unknown. More advanced expeditions are also available, but can be costly to create, like a Geographical or Anthropological expedition. So if you want to trace your route toward what will be named Lake Victoria (unknown in 1850 and thus not shown on the map!), you’ll have to explore progressively several hostile regions. Hostile because of the harsh climate but also because of the natives here, who often don’t appreciate your intrusion into their lands.

These lands were indeed not devoid of people, on the contrary. Many tribal or feudal kingdoms existed there. In PON they are part of a group of nations called Tribal&Feudal. These countries are able to muster troops very quickly, but most of the time in limited numbers, and are quite able to dispose of your exploration party, or even nearby military outposts, should you press them too hard. Luckily for you, they are constrained to remaining in the land where they have their own people, so you won’t see them rampaging in pacified countries.


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Another group of nations in Pride of Nation is the unorganized group. Here you’ll find China, the Ottoman Empire, Egypt, Persia and some others. They can do a lot of things and progress in technology, but they are far from being able to compete with the rapid pace of advances that benefits the western powers. These countries can be the target of a few actions from you, but not to the extent of a tribal country. You can for example set a trade post in China, or seize railways or customs in Persia, but that’s it. You won’t transform Teheran into a colony… However, you can negotiate diplomatically with Nasser al-Din Shah Qajar, Shah of Persia and secure a passage right or even a defensive treaty, while still seizing his customs, for good measure!
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

Baris
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Wed May 11, 2011 2:53 pm

Egypt were a vassal of Ottomans during or before the times, will it move from "unorganized group" to "orginized" after British occupation?? If Ottomans were unorginized then Balkans.. :confused: north Africa? Shouldnt Ottomans have some more impact on gameplay?

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Narwhal
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Wed May 11, 2011 9:47 pm

I am a bit worried for the O.E. as well. I understand Egypt and some God-forgotten parts of it are considered "unorganised", but the whole OE ? Tough.

In decline ? Most certainly. Unable to control some of its provinces ? Sure. But in the same category as Persia or China ? It should not.

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Hohenlohe
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Wed May 11, 2011 11:06 pm

As somekind of reminiscence of the earlier days of the Ottoman Empire it would have been possible for the Ottoman Administration to set its focus on some common sense. The Ottoman Empire saw itself as an successor state of the Byzantine(Roman) Empire which is more or less very true.

The founding dynasty got its connection to the old Byzanz by an important marriage between the Ottoman dynasty and the imperial byzantine dynasty of the Komnenos family and additional the just copied most of the byzantine administration and they even incorporated most of the byzantine culture so that it was possible for the earlier Ottoman period to evolve in some better shape than most christian kingdoms. But at the same time many byzantine cultural inventions were incorporated by the most important Italian Republics in those days after the fall of Constantinople. So we can tell that the Renaissance Era was just a consequence of the immigration of many byzantine christian intellectuals which help to change the cultural level of Western Europe in the following centuries and prepared many inventions which were in many cases only the copy of some byzantine ones...

In the later 17th century the Ottoman Empire got some change based on an islamic revival of a more conservative way which leads especially in the Arab peninsula to the ultra conservative islamic sect of the Wahabits.

The Islamic revival of the Ottomans would have been possibly lead to the more national tendencies of the Greek and not only the French Revolution and his consequences.

Until the late 17th century many officials in the Ottoman administration were of greek descendance and even christian. There were some more christian groups inside the Ottoman Empire like the Bulgars, the Serbs, the Armenians and perhaps half of the Albanian population and the Valachs the later Romanians.

For a very long time the Ottoman Empire was able to subdue the many mostly christian ethnies in a nearly modern approach by somekind of integration which diminished in the late 18th century by more foreign influencies like the French, the British and Russian ones.

As these nations appeared more and more in the eastern mediterranean area with many different interests they tried to get some parts of the Ottoman Empire for their own, especially the Russians in case of the orthodox christians on the balcans and in the caucasus area...

Thus it would be yet interesting for me as a little historian buff to see if there would be another approach to enable the Ottomans to survive long enough with most of its provinces against most of the odds.

There would be two different approaches possible:

first and above all the Islamic Way...connected with some modernization a faithful islamic Ottoman Elite could try to convert as much christians as possible to the Islam by strong taxation measures, by limiting most of the rights of the christians and by improving the cultural and economic situation of most Muslims - either Turks or Arabs and such else.
But on connection with a true islamic approach the Ottomans would need a modern army and navy combined with some islamic militias and a good strong Imperial Guard for the behalf of the Sultan.
Additional you as a player would need soe good alliances...
Either trying to to be an ally to the British and with the Prussian and perhaps with the Italians or in some other terms an alliance with France and Italy and perhaps even Persia, but the most successful would be the Britain - Prussia - Netherlands - USA alliance for some modernization.

In terms of a modernization and as a good help against Russian interest the last called alliance would be the best.

At behalf of the true islamic way it would be helpful to stay somehow neutral between France and Prussia and to be in a defensive alliance with Britain, France, Italy and Prussia to prevent the Austro-Russian influences on the balcans. Additional it would help somehow to modernize the Ottoman forces and perhaps the ottoman economics...

The more modern way would be a somehow dangerous one regarding the islamic majority of the Ottoman population. But if a good player would be able to install somekind of Parlamentiarian Monarchy like the Prussian model the Ottoman Empire would have been possible to survive even the Great War as the First WW was once called...

So I hope it would be possible that we could either get some additional event and such else data via the next patches if not already implemented or some explaination how we could do it for ourselves.

Or it would be possible to get access to some more factions via a later great update patch so we could eventually choose from about 12 nations I would suggest sofar...

heartly greetings

Hohenlohe ... :wacko:
R.I.P. Henry D.

In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...

Baris
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Thu May 12, 2011 1:58 am

Very well written and excellent summary Hohenlohe.

It seems Ottomans was indeed nomadic tribe until they control the city of Konstantin(Constantinople).Political move by II. Mehmet by declaring himself as as "kayser-i Rum" (Ruler of Rome) just after conquering Constantinople can be maybe explained for gaining respect from Europa continent),But it started to become reality in government administration. By conquering Constantinople Ottomans were introduced by higher culture and superstructure. They most probably effected by the intelligencia. They should indeed copy paste the administration.

Even though Ottoman sultan had also a second title as "Caliph"(to gain respect from arabs) Ottomans administration were like in "Classical Rome". In classic Rome ethinicity werent as important. İmportant part was to become loyal to Patrici class(noble). Thats why Sokollu Mehmet Paşa(Serbian, Ravançi Sokoloviç) was the most important man after Süleyman the magnificient. He was taken from christian peasants in Serbia and brought to palace,educated and become the second powerfull man in OE. That part was maybe different from Classic Rome administration. He wasnt noble. Janissaries were chosen from healty,strong Balkan peasants.(as it is believed) Sultans's wifes can sometimes be Russian,Italian and they were also influencing Ottoman's relations with example Italian city-states.

The Islamic revival of the Ottomans (But even though,secular Young Turk revolution started in Balkans,Selanika, 1900-1908) around 17-18 century should be possible related to economical,technological deficiency. Other reason is Turks started to get involved more in Patrici class about 17th century. Other then that western especially Russian effort to influence orthodox population. But not orthodox population in the west(levantens,christian traders) directly armenian population in the east. Ottomans started to get paranoia about their loyalty and rebellion chance. Russian Empire was a big threat. Otherwise from the book I have read Valachs peasant woman living in balkans and muslim peasants woman had exactly the same life style in 1890's. There wasnt a reason for tension or rebellion. Vassals in Europe were already confortable about taxes. But taxes were more harsh in Africa and middle east.

In game turns I think it would be an excellent idea to reflect the situation. Ex: Ottomans, Russians etc.. can have a unique diplomatic option about Ottomans minorites,vassals. From the outcome of choices Ottomans can dissolve faster or slower. It would greatly enhances the gameplay.

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PhilThib
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Thu May 12, 2011 8:55 am

Interesting comments and good historical points... in game terms, the notion of 'unorganized' is a summary of various concepts, it just means that it allows for soem kind of 'colonial' action of Great Powers inside the territory (like taking over rail concessions, customs or finance control, etc.. ;) but does not allow full war without a legitimate CB....no more...
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Hohenlohe
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Thu May 12, 2011 9:11 am

PhilThib wrote:Interesting comments and good historical points... in game terms, the notion of 'unorganized' is a summary of various concepts, it just means that it allows for soem kind of 'colonial' action of Great Powers inside the territory (like taking over rail concessions, customs or finance control, etc.. ;) but does not allow full war without a legitimate CB....no more...


Thanks, dear Philippe and my personal thanks for you both Phillippes and your team for creating such inspiring and wonderful games for all of us.

I personal like it to recreate history and to see how it is possible to take another approach related to the old historical one.
I am personally a great fan of the old Byzantine Empire and the old Templar order and related to newer history of the old Frederician Prussia and also of the Napoleonic France of the era from 1800 until 1815.

In all those days, especially in case of Napoleon there were so much changes in society, culture and economy that many of those are still influencing us nowadays.

And so I am glad to see that you bring us such wonderful games with which we can try to recreate history and how to see if we could do better than some of our greatest historical personalities like the old Fritz or good ole Nappie...

Thus I am very thankful for your good work...*thumpsup*

heartly greetings

Hohenlohe aka MikeFrank(Pdox-Forum)
R.I.P. Henry D.



In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...

Baris
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Thu May 12, 2011 11:02 am

Hohenlohe wrote:
In the later 17th century the Ottoman Empire got some change based on an islamic revival of a more conservative way which leads especially in the Arab peninsula to the ultra conservative islamic sect of the Wahabits.



There were actually 3 or 4 types of court system after capitulation(17-18th century). For Hethens,heretics etc.. Before capitilation there were already tolerance or vassal system. Ex: Sanjak(administrative division) of Novi Pazar(Modern Serbia ex Yogoslavia)were independent for internal politics as long as they are loyal and prepare when called to arms. What was not tolerated was the different sects in Islam. But from recordings there is no evidence that Sultan or admisinistrative officers used islamist punishment on even Islamic population. This should be quite different from wahabits system.

Hohenlohe wrote:I am personally a great fan of the old Byzantine Empire and the old Templar order and related to newer history of the old Frederician Prussia and also of the Napoleonic France of the era from 1800 until 1815.



Actually from what I have read Byzantine Empire(Maybe Roman Empire, I have doubts that they call themselves Byzantine in that period) were very corrupted. They were constantly attacked by Bulgars or Catholic states. They had zero tolerance and they were very into ethnicity then classic Rome(Classic Rome was pagan). But even that their administrative ability was way above then most other groups. But I have some doubt they directly influence Renaissance in Europe. On the other hand Ottomans around 1500 were very much fitting the definition to "Classical Rome"

Yes I think Ottomans should be playable with unique diplomatic options :thumbsup: It will definetely enhances the gameplay even more.

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NefariousKoel
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Sun May 15, 2011 12:49 pm

Baris wrote:
Yes I think Ottomans should be playable with unique diplomatic options :thumbsup: It will definetely enhances the gameplay even more.


Looks like modders will have some work to do, still.

Get to it! :neener: :D

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