Respenus
Posts: 331
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:19 am

Here's to you lads (Fan's critique of V2 Demo)

Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:38 pm

Well, I had this long and damning rant all ready in my head, yet I decided not to overuse my limited linguistic and cognitive capacities when describing the true horror, which is the endless hole of repetition, non-aptly named Victoria 2.

The best way I can describe it, is a comparison with a really horrible car, which looks fine on the outside, has a very complex and complicated equipment and interior, yet still manages to leave you senseless, quite literally, making you incapable of feeling anything about this mess of a game. When playing an AgeOD game, you have a feeling you're there, with your men and in the specific time period. Sure, some things are less complex but the spark of enthusiasm and "fun" is there.

The eternal genius which is our gaming overlord, Phillippe Thibaut (Do not worry Monsieur Malacher, we love you too :thumbsup :) when making the EU engine can still be seen in the Age engine. I won't say I dislike Paradox games, yet somehow, For the Glory, a modification of EU 2, which itself was an upgrade of EU 1, does it for me, while EU III and by extension Victoria 2, does not. My experience playing the demo was looking in the air, letting the time pass me by, waiting for things to be built and research to be done. And even that, the thing that struck my geek-acord the most, the research in a time of steam and steel, was made so tedious and incomprehensible, it took all the fun out of it. Plus the fact that you can only research one thing at a time and that trading knowledge is impossible (as far as I know), makes the whole point moot, as you have to decide either to become a military, or an industrial nation, or be forever cursed to stay in limbo, forever behind you enemies and allies, trying to keep the flimsy house of cards together, while the slightest wind of technological progress can destroy it.

Let's not speak of the POP screen, which is what my metaphor was alluding to. You have so much information that numbers just role in front of you. It's not that I don't like micromanaging, I do, yet to a certain extent. I grew up with the Impression building series games (which I would still recommend), so waiting for things to happen and looking at numbers is something I am still able to do. Complexity yes, but not at the cost of being overwhelmed by the data. Victoria 2 looks more like a complex 19th century social simulator than a game. Of course, the demo is limited and there are things still unseen which probably make the game only better. Yet what is a fancy façade and good an exquisite interior, if you can't enjoy the house you're living in?

I could go on about the military and combat system, which I newer liked in Paradox games, yet have come to accept it; or running a stable economy, while your capitalists decide to invest in a failing industry, that can barely be kept alive when subsidised, or the countless other little things that make a game tick.

As such, I raise my goblet to the Lords of Gaming and Grand Simulation, the AgeOD team, may you future be as prosperous as before, may all your projects be finished to your satisfaction and to that of your loyal fans and may you remain the jolly team we have all come to love for years (dare I say decades) to come.

Here's to you lads! You're our only hope now for a Victorian era game which will have the right atmosphere and give the vibe we are looking for in such games.

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PhilThib
Posts: 13705
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:21 pm
Location: Meylan (France)

Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:17 am

Both games have VERY different approach to the Victorian historical era and use a different engine, so you'll probably see a lot of differences :coeurs:

Thanks for the feedback (and personal praise :mdr :)
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Pocus
Posts: 25662
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:37 am
Location: Lyon (France)

Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:36 am

Both Philippe and I have a review copy of Victoria II, but as of now we have not put enough hours studying the game (although we still did a bit of homework hehe :) ).

The games are indeed very different in their approach, and with the Koln GamesCon, Paradox (including us here, we will be there!) will be able to show how both games are different. I believe each also have strong points that the other don't have. For example, to be honest, I believe that our internal politic system will be much simpler that the one Victoria II supports, on the other hand, Colonial matters... my, you'll be pleased by what we are doing with it (if you always wanted to impersonate Livingstone, Marchand or T.E Lawrence that is) :)

Also, amusingly, if you went to the Wargamer forum, some people complain on the contrary that Victoria don't have enough microing, with too many things automated. So let's wait for the initial impressions of players with the release product. The demo is not enough to get a definitive impression I believe.
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

Baris
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1945
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:50 pm

Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:00 am

Good quantity of nations with more diplomatic,economic options or smaller amount of nations with more quality military, warfare and diplomatic interpretation. Also colonial matters Im looking forward to.

In the end it is all about playability that matters. Rather than simulation or automation I prefer direct approach about advanced military and warfare with extended diplomatic options. Vainglory of Nations will be more suitable for multiplayer also when I think of other Ageod titles. It will be wonderful game. :thumbsup:

kosmoface
Corporal
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:26 pm

Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:16 am

I find it quite nice that we get two very good games based in the Victorian era, made by two of the best design design teams in the world in this genre, with two dirfferent approaches. I'm more like an AND than an EITHER player.

I quite liked the V2 demo. Great Interface, beautiful indirect concept of steering your nation, the graphics are nice, too. Okay, economics were way too easy to handle. They have to balance the difficulty better and that is about the only thing I have to criticize. V2 is a highpoint of paradox' history I'd even say: they used the EUIII Engine finally to the fullest, together with a very stable first release - I applaud paradox for this.

Otoh I'm more excited about Vainglory of Nations because it will be the next big step in the history of AGEOD. With the new module, they now can implement politics too into their games and this will make very good games even better. I shudder in excitement when I think of all the new possibilites for future releases. Can't wait for Vainglory/Pride/whatever it will be called...

Fernando Torres
Conscript
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:45 am

Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:12 am

Victoria II appears to be a good Paradox game. Probably the best Clausewitz game.
But it has obvious flaws when you scratch the (nice) surface.
It looks to me that with HOI3 and V2 they have intended to build very complex games featuring lots of datas and mechanisms in order to make the game look polished and complete.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of balance issues. Many mechanisms are either bugged or remain obscure to the player who thereby is feeling that he is not actually playing the game but rather observing history.
Of course this is okay for fanboys and casual gamers (no offense :) ). Yet as it comes to AGEOD I am pretty sure they have a starkly different approach.

So yes I understand your feeling. But I am not really worried about Vainglory of Nations (I'm still not used to Paradox name :) ). I am more specifically looking forward to see what the new diplomatic/politic module looks like.

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