Offworlder
Brigadier General
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:56 pm
Location: Malta

Upgrading American forces

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:43 pm

Ever since the new patch, many militias etc are automatically upgrading to Continental Army level. Is this a feature? Because it seriously destabilises the game. In the hands of a human player, after a few years, the Americans end up with monstrous armies.

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:49 pm

If they have experience, or are with a training officer, it is WAD.

Continentals are still subject to dispersing at year end.
Trained Continentals are not...

I'll double check it, though...
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]
[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]
[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

User avatar
Stwa
Colonel
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 am

Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:54 pm

Offworlder wrote:Ever since the new patch, many militias etc are automatically upgrading to Continental Army level. Is this a feature? Because it seriously destabilises the game. In the hands of a human player, after a few years, the Americans end up with monstrous armies.


Thats right, so if you are the British player and you can't quell the rebellion in the first year, you better park your ____ in New York, because if you wander around the countryside (like Burgoyne and Cornwallis), your going to be in beeg trouble. :sourcil:

Offworlder
Brigadier General
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:56 pm
Location: Malta

Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:00 am

What I'm saying is that prior to the patch, every January the Americans lost a lot of their strength because even with 4 training officers, they could only train so many units. Thus it was important to have a reservoir of trained continentals to act as the backbone of every army.

Unfortunately now units start upgrading without being in the same stack as a training officer. In practice this means that the bulk of the militia and most of the untrained continentals become trained continentals over time, making it impossible for the British to win. Now its one thing if the British are being played by a human, who can compensate for the American rapid training, and its another if the Americans are played by a human. In practice after 1779, a human player will not have any problem going head to head with a British force. What do you need the French for? :fleb:

Which brings me to another point: French intervention. I have managed to pummel the British (because of the above exploit) in a little over 3 years. Yet French intervention never came. The intervention counter stopped around 60 or 70 and didn't move. I think that the treshhold for French intervention is too high (considering that historically they intervened about half to two thirds of the way through the war. In no way is the French intervention the event that tipped the scales in favour of the Americans. This even though I set intervention on easy.

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:05 am

Could you please upload a save game showing the upgrades? Current turn reporting/showing upgrade plus 3-4 previous should be enough... :)

We'll look at the FE. I'm not sure what all the souces of FE points are, but I do know it's relatively easy to add more :cwboy:

Thanks
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

User avatar
Stwa
Colonel
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 am

Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:16 am

Hi again,

Sorry for the flip answer above. I feel your pain, but we should wait for Lodi's reply on the actual rule.

I think before, the militias were actually upgrading to Light Infantry, which was probably a mistake or a bad idea, so now (per your observation), they are upgrading to continentals, which is fine, IMHO.

Even since BOA days, the British AI has always been easier to beat that the American AI, once the Auto Raise feature was working properly.

For instance, here is a graphic of July 76 autoraise for the Americans. Now most of these militias will disband (if they don't upgrade first). But you can see, the list of regiments is huge, so if the American player can consolidate and use these forces, before they disband, well... you get the idea.

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:01 am

Also, looking at 1.01d patch, there were improvements in 'Leader Promotions".

This uses the same parameter [TechUpg] in models that Militia have set for upgrade to Infantry...

Maybe, just maybe, there's a small 'glitch' [like a default 'Seniority = 0" being read for these units?]... :siffle:

Militia are also set to be trained to Infantry [TrainUpg], and I know from my testing that is WAD...
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

Offworlder
Brigadier General
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:56 pm
Location: Malta

Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:30 pm

I can confirm that militia trains up to Continentals (yellow jacket) and then to Advanced Continentals (red jacket).

BTW this automatic upgrade does not happen uniformly. Sometimes units in the same area as a training officer start upgrading. Other times it happens in areas without any officers. It happens to both militias and yellow jacket Continentals. Sometimes even to riflemen who become elite riflemen etc. But the end product is that within 3 years the Americans end up with a massive regular army.

I'm still trying to attach the files but I can't seem to find them on the browser thingy. (Did I say that I'm a dilettante in IT :nuts: )

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Yes, I think it's a bug

Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:17 pm

Offworlder wrote:I can confirm that militia trains up to Continentals (yellow jacket) and then to Advanced Continentals (red jacket).

BTW this automatic upgrade does not happen uniformly. Sometimes units in the same area as a training officer start upgrading. Other times it happens in areas without any officers. It happens to both militias and yellow jacket Continentals. Sometimes even to riflemen who become elite riflemen etc. But the end product is that within 3 years the Americans end up with a massive regular army.

I'm still trying to attach the files but I can't seem to find them on the browser thingy. (Did I say that I'm a dilettante in IT :nuts: )


OK, I confirm this [no need for save file] :(

I further tested by removing 'TechUpg' from the models, and it still happens. Appears [no solid data] to be more likely if the unit is inside a structure, but also can occur outside.

Logs [even in debug mode] do not appear to tell me what/why this happens, so it goes to the devs [=Pocus et. al.] :king:

The units do NOT have added experience, nor are they with a training officer.

IMHO, this is a bug, and needs attention [I get to put it on the list, but y'all need to know].

Thanks for your patience and help! :)
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

Offworlder
Brigadier General
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:56 pm
Location: Malta

Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:50 pm

THANK YOU! :coeurs:

Stwa said: "I think before, the militias were actually upgrading to Light Infantry, which was probably a mistake or a bad idea, so now (per your observation), they are upgrading to continentals, which is fine, IMHO."

Actually it wouldn't be a bad idea for the few rifle battalions that come available down south.

Ardie
Captain
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:35 pm
Location: Finland

Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:24 pm

This training bug was introduced in the BOA legacy patch which caused several players reinstalling the previous patch.

It also prevented the training officers to upgrade the continentals under their command instead of the outlying militia garrisons which in turn led to massive dismissal of untrained continental rgts come January.

Is this the same?

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:49 pm

Ardie wrote:This training bug was introduced in the BOA legacy patch which caused several players reinstalling the previous patch.

It also prevented the training officers to upgrade the continentals under their command instead of the outlying militia garrisons which in turn led to massive dismissal of untrained continental rgts come January.

Is this the same?


Not sure. But this is pretty much a different engine from BoA, and AFAIK we don't see this in AACW or NCP [similar engine].

It appears to be new with latest patch.
Let's give Pocus some time to look at it :)

By the way, I have confirmed that the training officers are working correctly. :king:
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

Offworlder
Brigadier General
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:56 pm
Location: Malta

Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:03 pm

Yes the training officers are working correctly. The only units that seem they can't train are the militia riflemen found in the south (not irregulars).

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:10 pm

Offworlder wrote:Yes the training officers are working correctly. The only units that seem they can't train are the militia riflemen found in the south (not irregulars).


Correct - the Militia Riflemen and Backwoods Riflemen do not upgrade.


...for now ;)
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

Offworlder
Brigadier General
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:56 pm
Location: Malta

Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:09 am

lodilefty wrote:Correct - the Militia Riflemen and Backwoods Riflemen do not upgrade.


...for now ;)


Being able to upgrade the Militia Riflemen would be awesome! Maybe to Light Infantry brigades? Hehe most of the time the Light Infantry units I'm given end up forming the mobile strike forces...

What could the Backwoods Riflemen Upgrade to?

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:06 am

Offworlder wrote:Being able to upgrade the Militia Riflemen would be awesome! Maybe to Light Infantry brigades? Hehe most of the time the Light Infantry units I'm given end up forming the mobile strike forces...

What could the Backwoods Riflemen Upgrade to?


What would you like the backwoods upgrade to be?

{Sorry to answer a question with a question :( , but inouts are welcome!}
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

User avatar
Stwa
Colonel
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 am

Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:21 am

lodilefty wrote:What would you like the backwoods upgrade to be?

{Sorry to answer a question with a question :( , but inouts are welcome!}


They should probably upgrade to Colonist, or farmers, or stage coach drivers.

Also, maybe some of the guys in the Partisan units have rifles anyway.

Offworlder
Brigadier General
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:56 pm
Location: Malta

Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:19 am

lodilefty wrote:What would you like the backwoods upgrade to be?

{Sorry to answer a question with a question :( , but inouts are welcome!}


Actually I always liked the idea of having the backwoods riflemen as they are. Maybe if it makes sense or if it has some historical basis, they should not be disbanded if under the leadership of a charsimatic partisan leader like Warner, Allen and the guy down south. Don't know if it really makes sense though.

BTW sometimes the Americans get rangers and sometimes they don't. What makes them appear?

User avatar
Stwa
Colonel
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 am

Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:02 am

BTW, I recently upgraded my mods to BoA1 v 1.13d which exhibits many of the same problems you have been describing. So I was compelled to try and fix it.

1. I got the AUTO Upgrade to work. (hint, I did not use AutoTechUpg).

2. It looks like the Training Officer Ability is hosed. Either Parms 1 - 7 are bogus or the code behind these is bugged.

3. Right now, It looks like the game will go to each stack in the same area where the Training Officer is and try to update 2 compaines. This seems like an ACW thing? So if Washington is in Reading (PA), the game will also try to update 2 companies of the regiment in Wyoming (PA) and Pittsburg (PA). Maybe not? I worked with Saratoga and 1778 Northern. Parm 7 looks like the # of companies to upgrade (set at 2) and Parm 3 looks like the probability of the event which is set at 100.

4. So, perhaps Pocus can tell us what the Parms are for the Training Officer Ability and if its a data problem we can fix it.

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:14 am

Stwa wrote:BTW, I recently upgraded my mods to BoA1 v 1.13d which exhibits many of the same problems you have been describing. So I was compelled to try and fix it.

1. I got the AUTO Upgrade to work. (hint, I did not use AutoTechUpg).

2. It looks like the Training Officer Ability is hosed. Either Parms 1 - 7 are bogus or the code behind these is bugged.

3. Right now, It looks like the game will go to each stack in the same area where the Training Officer is and try to update 2 compaines. This seems like an ACW thing? So if Washington is in Reading (PA), the game will also try to update 2 companies of the regiment in Wyoming (PA) and Pittsburg (PA). Maybe not? I worked with Saratoga and 1778 Northern. Parm 7 looks like the # of companies to upgrade (set at 2) and Parm 3 looks like the probability of the event which is set at 100.

4. So, perhaps Pocus can tell us what the Parms are for the Training Officer Ability and if its a data problem we can fix it.

<snip>.


Is this in BoA ? or WIA ?
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

User avatar
Stwa
Colonel
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 am

Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:18 am

lodilefty wrote:Is this in BoA ? or WIA ?


I was working in BOA1 v 1.13d. But these problems are related to some of the things being described in WIA.

I also have WIA, so I have run the same thing there, and could be the Training Officer, just isn't doing what its supposed to do.

Oh sorry, I forgot to mention I added several columns to the Boa unit and model data to make it more up to date. So maybe when you removed TechUpg it had no effect, like you said.

Sooo, maybe when you think about it ... Training officer, and ____Upg..

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:43 am

Right now, It looks like the game will go to each stack in the same area where the Training Officer is and try to update 2 compaines. This seems like an ACW thing? So if Washington is in Reading (PA), the game will also try to update 2 companies of the regiment in Wyoming (PA) and Pittsburg (PA). Maybe not? I worked with Saratoga and 1778 Northern. Parm 7 looks like the # of companies to upgrade (set at 2) and Parm 3 looks like the probability of the event which is set at 100.


I have WIA data that shows "incorrect" upgrades in areas with no training officer.
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

User avatar
Rafiki
Posts: 5811
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:19 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:48 am

Stwa, it would be appreciated that when you're discussing things (here) in the WIA-forums, that you're explicit about it when you're referring to things from BoA :)
[CENTER]Latest patches: AACW :: NCP :: WIA :: ROP :: RUS :: PON :: AJE
Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[/CENTER]

User avatar
Stwa
Colonel
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:01 am

Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:13 pm

lodilefty wrote:I have WIA data that shows "incorrect" upgrades in areas with no training officer.


Well, OK, then thats not it. I am just trying to locate a pattern if there is one.

I did jump in to 76 (WIA), and I cant get Wayne to train at all now.

Well anyway, I still think there might be something wrong with the ability itself. Based on what Offworlder was seeing, which was similar to what I saw at one point too. Or at least parts of it.

Regards,

Stwa

P.S. Rafiki,

I think if you look close at the post, I mentioned BoA v 1.13d several times. I am also working with WIA 1.01d, these two guys are about 6 months apart, so they probably have a lot in common.

User avatar
Rafiki
Posts: 5811
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:19 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:30 pm

Stwa wrote:I think if you look close at the post, I mentioned BoA v 1.13d several times.
Sorry Stwa, but you're saying that you have worked on this in BoA, but you don't say if the suggested fixes are what work for BoA or what would work for WIA; in a WIA-thread I'd hope for the latter, which is why I'm bringing it up. :)
Stwa wrote:I am also working with WIA 1.01d, these two guys are about 6 months apart, so they probably have a lot in common.

I've seen patches released for AACW and NCP on the same day; still doesn't mean the games are identical; I'm pretty sure that AGE and WIA itself saw more than a few changes during those 6 months :sourcil:
[CENTER]Latest patches: AACW :: NCP :: WIA :: ROP :: RUS :: PON :: AJE

Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

[/CENTER]

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:32 pm

At this point, I suggest we wait for Pocus to look at it. :)

It's obvious something is amiss, but while it may be fun for us to keep guessing at any differences/commonality between BoA and WIA engines, it's likely not much help.... :tournepas

However, any WIA saved games demonstrating the apparent bug are very useful, and should be uploaded here .... :king:

Thanks :)
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

Ardie
Captain
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:35 pm
Location: Finland

Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:32 pm

So it was the same bug. I think I'll wait some more before ordering WIA.

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7576
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:40 pm

Ardie wrote:So it was the same bug. I think I'll wait some more before ordering WIA.


As there are many changes in the game Engine since BoA, I'm not sure it's the same bug.

I am sure we'll fix it very soon. :)
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]

[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]



[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

Return to “BoA2: Wars in America”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest