Torca
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Map Issue

Tue May 06, 2008 5:28 pm

I'm not sure if this had been an issue already but here it is.
After the fall of fort Henry US navy undertook what became known as timberclad raid. Foote sent Lieutenant Phelps with the three timberclads, the Tyler, Conestoga, and Lexington, on a mission up river to destroy installations and supplies of military value. The raid reached as far as Muscle Shoals, just past Florence, Alabama, the limit of navigability.
In this game ships are able to navigate up to Knoxville, TN. If forts Henry and Donelson are captured rebels are forced to abandon Nashville and retreat all the way back across the Tennessee River or risk to be cut off by US navy.

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soloswolf
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Tue May 06, 2008 6:03 pm

What's your question? What's the issue?
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Banks6060
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Tue May 06, 2008 6:11 pm

soloswolf wrote:What's your question? What's the issue?


The Tennessee shouldn't be navigable by river fleets past Florence, Alabama. I'd have to read into it...but I believe he's correct. Otherwise the yanks would have probably had a much easier time grabbing Chattanooga.

Just park a fleet of ironclads outside and rain down hell upon the poor defenders.

Of course I could be wrong. :siffle:

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W.Barksdale
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Tue May 06, 2008 6:25 pm

This was discussed briefly in this thread. http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=8240

I tend to agree union fleets can navigate a little too far upriver.

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Tue May 06, 2008 7:06 pm

Sorry if I haven't been clear enough. Tennessee River was not navigable from mentioned point because of rapids called Muscle Shoals but in this game it is. Should map be changed or not?
Players can agree not to use ships beyond that point tho.

However, canal with 17 locks was built in the 1830s to bypass the rapids. It proved to be inadequate because ships couldn't pass trough it when level of water was low. Second canal built in 1880s was a success and dominated the area until the construction of Wilson Dam in the 1920s. Anyway, in time of civil war inadequate canal with 17 locks (blow up just one and canal is closed) was useless for US navy for any serious exploit.
By 1835 steamboats regularly traveled from Knoxville,TN to Decatur,AL but even this leg of the river was only reasonably safe when water was high.


1882 maps of Muscle Shoals can be found at http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/alrivers/index.html

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soloswolf
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Tue May 06, 2008 7:14 pm

Banks6060 wrote:Just park a fleet of ironclads outside and rain down hell upon the poor defenders.


Well, this failed in almost every instance it was tried, so I doubt it would have been the key to the city, but it certainly would have been nice for the Federals.

Regarding the map: If it wasn't fit for travel back then, I support a change.
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Torca
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Tue May 06, 2008 7:15 pm

Banks6060 wrote:
Just park a fleet of ironclads outside and rain down hell upon the poor defenders.
:siffle:


That's the least they can do!

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Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:Eventually, I will be looking into the river system after I complete the RR work.

Thanks in advance! This game is more than the sum of its parts, but getting each and every part right just adds to its overall awesomeness.
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Tue May 06, 2008 11:32 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:At the moment, game engine wise, there is no way to prevent ironclads from moving past Muscle Shoals. Eventually, I will be looking into the river system after I complete the RR work.



I've probably asked this before: :siffle:

woud a navalinterdict fit there between two river sections?

[I haven't looked at AACW in awhile - working frm memory....] :innocent:
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Wed May 07, 2008 4:59 am

Gray_Lensman wrote:No... It seems it doesn't effectively block Naval transit between water regions. This could be a bypass effect however of the naval units moving from adjacent land regions to the next adjacent land region... I didn't block all the possible land entries in my test, since several regions (6) have harbor definitions and this may involve a lot more rework of the water borne supply system along this part of the Tennessee River. This effectively places this work on the back burner until I finish other work.


Just make sure that the Tennessee River does NOT touch Georgia in any way. :king:


Tennessee-Georgia border dispute story in Washington Post

Sorry about the other link..... It was right when I hit "post". :grr:

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Torca
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Wed May 07, 2008 10:37 am

lodilefty wrote:woud a navalinterdict fit there between two river sections?


Is it possible to determine section of a river as impassable?

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Wed May 07, 2008 11:33 am

Gray_Lensman wrote:Not that I have found just yet. Different sections of rivers are defined as shallow or not, and frozen or not, then the ships are classified as to whether they are capable of transiting these types of river terrains. I believe the answer will lie in defining a new type of river terrain itself, which can then be classified as impassable... Trouble is, this type of testing takes time, and I have other priorities before I am able to experiment with this.



You could change the the terrain in one entire river section. For instance, call it 'clear'. Land units would cross it OK, Naval couldn't go there at all.

Unfortunately, if there is a port contiguous with both water regions on either side of the 'blocked' stretch, you'd stll need navalinterdict links to stop the 'byass'.

Anyway, you'll need to interdict all the 'port to port' movement.

I discovered 'port to port' naval passage in WiA dvelopment: ships were sailing from Boston to Provdence without going through Massachusets Bay! :8o:

...or was there a canal there in 1775? :niark:
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soloswolf
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Wed May 07, 2008 12:57 pm

lodilefty wrote:I discovered 'port to port' naval passage in WiA dvelopment: ships were sailing from Boston to Provdence without going through Massachusets Bay! :8o:

...or was there a canal there in 1775? :niark:


No one told you? :mdr:
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LMUBill
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Wed May 07, 2008 5:02 pm

As far as the Tennessee River is concerned there were two major "chokepoints." Muscle (or Mussel) Shoals and the gorge just west of Chattanooga. The gorge could be runnable at times of high water if you avoided the two worst spots along that stretch (the "Boiling Pot" and the "Suck") which were basically some big rapids and a whirlpool. Muscle Shoals was a whole different monster and never was really "conquered" until the early 1900s.

These two areas were the first along the river to see dams built.... and neither one was built by TVA. Wilson Dam took care of Muscle Shoals and Hales Bar Dam deepened the river in the gorge.

Hales Bar Dam was upstream of the current I-24 crossing and some of the foundations/outbuildings can still be seen from the interstate. The dam was faulty and replaced by TVA's Nickajack Dam a few miles downstream. (That area was the "home" of the Chickamauga branch of the Cherokees for all you BOA2 fans. :niark: )

So in game terms if you wanted to be accurate you could have basically two Tennessee rivers.... from Florence/Muscle Shoals downstream runnable year round and from the shoals to near Knoxville runnable from February-July or so.

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LMUBill
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Wed May 07, 2008 5:03 pm

As far as the Tennessee River is concerned there were two major "chokepoints." Muscle (or Mussel) Shoals and the gorge just west of Chattanooga. The gorge could be runnable at times of high water if you avoided the two worst spots along that stretch (the "Boiling Pot" and the "Suck") which were basically some big rapids and a whirlpool. Muscle Shoals was a whole different monster and never was really "conquered" until the early 1900s.

These two areas were the first along the river to see dams built.... and neither one was built by TVA. Wilson Dam took care of Muscle Shoals and Hales Bar Dam deepened the river in the gorge.

Hales Bar Dam was upstream of the current I-24 crossing and some of the foundations/outbuildings can still be seen from the interstate. The dam was faulty and replaced by TVA's Nickajack Dam a few miles downstream. (That area was the "home" of the Chickamauga branch of the Cherokees for all you BOA2 fans. :niark: )

So in game terms if you wanted to be accurate you could have basically two Tennessee rivers.... from Florence/Muscle Shoals downstream runnable year round and from the shoals to near Knoxville runnable from February-July or so.

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