Names of regions, cities and geographical features

[TheDoctorKing]

5.) Manually changed the displayed tooltip name for the Middle Tennessee River region to "Mussel Shoals". This was done to reduce confusion concerning where this region was located, since it is now impassable to shipping as it was historically.

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- That should be _Muscle_ Shoals -

Pamlicoe Sound (1391)
Pamlicoe Bay (1393)

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- Pamlico, no final "e" -

Susquehanna, PA (76) is now Suquehanna, MD.

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- Susquehanna is the correct spelling. Don't know if you actually changed the spelling or this was just a typo -


Not trying to be picky, just some minor points. The patch looks great!

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Doomwalker]

Well, you got one out of 3 right, but only on a typo in the release notes above...Susquehanna is still spelled Susquehanna in game, but if read that section carefully, it refers to the fact that those 5 regions had their state affiliations changed to match the state they were in. This also affects the "coloring" when selected on one of the map option buttons...

Now according to "The Official Military Atlas of the Civil War" with literally hundreds of contributing persons, and leaders at the time and done immediately after the Civil War for the US Archives. Pamilico is spelled without the "e", and "Mussel Shoals" is indeed spelled correctly also. The proof is shown below. In fact, you can "Google" these spelling and you will see that they are the ones still used today. I suspect a lot of Civil War history books written years later continually referenced an "incorrect" spelling and it was perpetuated that way.


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Regards

Not to be nit picky about it, but I did the "Google" search on Mussel Shoals, and it references California; not Alabama. The first few search results show California, then it corrects the spelling to Muscle Shoals and provides information about the area of Alabama. I saw one entry for Mussel Shoals, AL in the search, which was for a hotel. I am not too sure about the 1860's spelling, but living 40 miles from there, I know for a fact that the 2008 spelling is Muscle Shoals. Also, the wiki page references that the origin of the name is not known. It could be from mussel shells lying on the shoreline or from the physical strength that it would take to transit that section of the river.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Doomwalker]

The 2008 spelling could very well be Muscle Shoals, but the 1860s spellings were "Mussel Shoals". The attached picture above is taken straight from "The Official Military Atlas of the Civil War" which is a collection of Map plates to accompany the official records of the Union and Confederate armies, published under the direction of Hons, Redfield Proctor, Stephen B. Elkins, and Daniel S. Lamont, all Secretaries of War. There are 821 maps reproduced in the Atlas. Basically, my goal is historical accuracy. If the region was named "Mussel Shoals" on the maps from the time period, then the game will use the term "Mussel Shoals". As I stated above, the term "Muscle Shoals" is a probably a distortion of the original name and it even somewhat alludes to that fact in some of the "googled" links.

OK, with a little search on the following site: http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/alabama/1840-1860.html
You will notice that the maps range from 1840 to 1860. In all of the maps that I pulled up and looked at, the spelling is Muscle Shoals. I have to question the use of Mussel Shoals as historic, if there are maps from 1840 showing it as Muscle Shoals.

[Doomwalker]

OK, after looking at every map on the webpage I posted above, I have to HIGHLY disagree with the use of Mussel Shoals for this area. Every map has this section of the river labeled as Muscle Shoals. I even checked the pre-1840 maps and they are labeled as Muscle Shoals as well. I am not too sure of where the spelling Mussel Shoals came from, but is it wrong for use on this section of the Tennessee river.

[berto]

Although a case can be made that "Muscle Shoals" is the correct spelling, a good case can be made also for "Mussel Shoals." Poor Gray could chase his tail endlessly over what are, in the end, minor quibbles like this. After more than a year doing this painstaking work, Gray has compiled a comprehensive, authoritative (for the time) set of references on these matters, and I for one defer to his good and considered judgment on this issue.

[Doomwalker]

Although a case can be made that "Muscle Shoals" is the correct spelling, a good case can be made also for "Mussel Shoals." Poor Gray could chase his tail endlessly over what are, in the end, minor quibbles like this. After more than a year doing this painstaking work, Gray has compiled a comprehensive, authoritative (for the time) set of references on these matters, and I for one defer to his good and considered judgment on this issue.

Pardon me, but every reference I have seen, other than the one by Gray, has it spelled Muscle Shoals. The webpage provided above has maps from 1803 thru 1987, with all labeled as Muscle Shoals. I am not sure of how the Mussel spelling got there, but it is not historic and should not be used.

[arsan]

Hey, maybe we could name the region as M. Shoals...

[Doomwalker]

Hey, maybe we could name the region as M. Shoals...

We could just label it "The Shoals" as that has become its generic name these days.

[TheDoctorKing]

On Mussel/Muscle Shoals, I bow to the superior local knowledge of Doomwalker. But I have lived in North Carolina and I don't think I've ever seen Pamlico spelled with an "e". The map art is correct but when you hover your pointer over the regions you get a tooltip that uses the final e.

I also noticed that right offshore there is a "Ocracock" sound. The name is derived from an island that I have spent a good deal of time on, spelled "Ocracoke".

In a larger sense, it is important to realize that spelling in American English didn't become regularized until the late nineteenth century. It's not like French with the Académie Française that has established a consensus spelling, vocabulary and grammar since the 1600s. So you can find examples of all sorts of bizarre (to the modern eye) spellings if you look hard enough in contemporary sources. I would suggest that using the modern spelling should be the default for this project. Anybody who has been there will be taken aback when they see a non-standard spelling. I think it detracts somewhat (in a very minor way) from the believability of the simulation.

I don't mean to take away from the hard work that Grey has done on this. I think it is wonderful that you have produced such a fine product. I am trying to make a constructive suggestion for further improvement instead of just sniping or being petty.

[berto]

Pardon me, but every reference I have seen, other than the one by Gray, has it spelled Muscle Shoals. The webpage provided above has maps from 1803 thru 1987, with all labeled as Muscle Shoals. I am not sure of how the Mussel spelling got there, but it is not historic and should not be used.

It's not very hard at all to find other references to "Mussel Shoals." Just do a Google search.

Here's one reference:

Muskogean Influence on Cherokee Place Names

The Tennessee River enters Alabama at very near the state’s northeastern corner, and it swings across the northern part of the state, making a southwesterly detour near Florence, and then proceeds to exit the state at precisely its northwestern corner. Before the dams of the Tennessee Valley Authority were built, there were shoals in the vicinity of Florence, and these shoals were rich in freshwater mussels. In fact, there are more than 50 species of mussels in the Alabama portion of the Tennessee. To the Cherokee, this section of the river was Daguno’hi, “mussel place,” from “dagu’na,” mussel, plus the locative -hi. English speakers translated Dagunohi as “Mussel Shoals” and then misspelled it to name the city of Muscle Shoals.

There is reason to believe, at the very least, that "Mussel Shoals" refers to the section of the river, while "Muscle Shoals" refers to the community located at that place.

I don't want to get into a reference war. Doubtless you could provide dozens of references suggesting just the opposite.

A reasonable case, maybe even just a weak case, can be made for "Mussel Shoals." It's not like there is no basis in fact whatsoever for "Mussel Shoals"; there is.

But that's kind of besides the point. My larger point, again, is that Gray can't devote hours to researches, not to mention hours of forum debates, over every disputed place name. He has better things to do, and sooner rather than later has to fish (for mussels?) rather than cut bait.

I cut him some slack.

[But in the end, does it really matter? Signing off on this one...]

[Doomwalker]

It's not very hard at all to find other references to "Mussel Shoals." Just do a Google search.

Here's one reference:

Muskogean Influence on Cherokee Place Names



There is reason to believe, at the very least, that "Mussel Shoals" refers to the section of the river, while "Muscle Shoals" refers to the community located at that place.

I don't want to get into a reference war. Doubtless you could provide dozens of references suggesting just the opposite.

A reasonable case, maybe even just a weak case, can be made for "Mussel Shoals." It's not like there is no basis in fact whatsoever for "Mussel Shoals"; there is.

But that's kind of besides the point. My larger point, again, is that Gray can't devote hours to researches, not to mention hours of forum debates, over every disputed place name. He has better things to do, and sooner rather than later has to fish (for mussels?) rather than cut bait.

I cut him some slack.

[But in the end, does it really matter? Signing off on this one...]

Does it matter? Well yes, every reference, other than one, has it listed as Muscle. Some of these references reach almost as far back as the birth of this nation itself. I would think that this would be a easy decision with the quantity of references that I have provided on the subject already.

As far as "Googling" Mussel Shoals, the spelling comes back as Muscle Shoals on most of the sites. It takes some searching to find a spelling of Mussel Shoals for Alabama. Now I did find plenty of references for Mussel Shoals California.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Rafiki]

We can discuss it some more over there, once Rafiki or Korrigan move some of these comments.

[color="Blue"]Good point; done[/color]

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[berto]

Heck, I can't resist...

In addition to the aforementioned Indian citation, visit

http://www.multied.com/NAVY/cwnavalhistory/April1864.html

and see Sherman quoted as saying

Sherman added: "I want the [Tennessee] River above Mussel Shoals patrolled as soon as possible, as it will set free one garrison."

Do a Google search on the term

"mussel shoals" alabama "civil war"

and you will find numerous references to the "Mussel Shoals" usage, not in overwhelming number, but they do exist.

For anyone to argue that there is no basis whatsoever for the Mussel Shoals usage, they would be wrong. There are contemporaneous accounts from Civil War times justifying the Mussel Shoals usage, at least one of those accounts (Gray's official maps) being impressively authoritative.

Again, the confusion might stem from the supposition (unproven, yes) that "Mussel Shoals" refers to the river segment, while "Muscle Shoals" refers to the community near that place--at the time of the Civil War. (Maybe during the War, both names were used to refer to the river segment? Could be.)

If, since after the Civil War, "Muscle Shoals" has predominated, we should not be surprised if more recent and modern-day "Muscle Shoals" references on Google outnumber (even by a wide margin) "Mussel Shoals" references. Muscle Shoals City School District, Muscle Shoals Public Library, Best Western Fairwinds Inn Muscle Shoals, etc., etc.. (Mussel Shoals, CA? Not relevant to the current discussion, and a straw man, that.)

Gray has wrestled with these sorts of issues since day one. I respect his methods, honor his considered judgment, and accept his decision on this particular matter.

Let's not push Gray too hard, shall we? As AACW Coordinator, he is an unpaid volunteer. We don't want to alienate him to the point of abandoning his post.

[Nikel]

What an interesting discussion you have here


I am spaniard and of course know nothing about this topic, but by curiosity I have searched a bit.


If you use google books, published before 1865, this are the numbers given

"Muscle Shoals" date:0-1865 685 references

"Mussel Shoals" date:0-1865 61 references


No idea if the 685 references of Muscle Shoals are referring to the one you talk about.


If you search for both before 1865

"Mussel Shoals" "Muscle Shoals" date:0-1865 2 references, but you cannot read them online


Both, without date

"Mussel Shoals" "Muscle Shoals" 110 references, if you browse them a bit you will notice that this has been discussed before!!

Just an example from science magazine 1925

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Now IMHO, if Gray_Lensman is doing this hard job using a historical atlas, as valid or more than any other you can use. For consistency what is showed in the atlas is what should be done.

After all if somebody things that this is wrong, they can always release their own mod for the game with whatever name they want.


Regards

[Rafiki]

On the lighter side, maybe we should offer "personalized" region names ! Here's some examples:

(various examples)

Of course, there would probably be a processing and handling fee !

Regards

[Jabberwock]

Sure, sure, just tell EVERYONE about Jabber's secret crossing. I guess I deserve it for posting about the secret region finder before Pocus wanted to let everyone know. Next we'll have to publicly admit the existence of our little Cthulu cult.

[PBBoeye]

Looking forward to this patch.

Kinda curious as to why 'Albermale Sound' has not been correctly renamed to 'Albemarle Sound'. There has never been any place I've heard of referred to as 'Albermale'...